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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

121–130 of 341 posts

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#121
post #97

I love the look/feel/drive of a VW, but I will never again own one. My parents bought a 2002 VW which I mostly drove and the maintenance costs were through the roof. There have been at least 3-4 recall notices, one time while parked on an incline, it rained and flooded the back of the car with water. When I went to VW, they said that I had to manually clean out some drainage underneath the car. How the hell am I goin…

This was true for much of the 2000s, but the new platform used from ~2009 onwards (the one implicated here) has been perfectly fine. The 2009-2016 Golfs get consistent Very Good/Good reliability ratings from Consumer Reports.

They're still not Honda, but they're now better than average.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#122

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California's CARB is the gestapo of car emissions. If anyone has the motivation, expertise, and evil disposition to detect this, it's the state of California. I've never lived in a state like this. Bi-yearly tailpipe sniffs and visual inspections. Even if your car's emissions are cleaner than their ridiculous requirements, they'll still fail your car if it has parts on it that are not stock. I ended up having to sell…

The reason California is so strict is because LA used to be synonymous with lethal levels of smog.

Used to be.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#123
post #57

The tech industry has been guilty of this in the past as well. Example: Nvidia and AMD drivers detected if you were running certain benchmarks or games, and would cheat by downgrading various rendering settings that had minimal effect visually. Often this was a simple check to get the process's executable name; simply renaming the .exe would get you significantly different perf results.

Yeah that was how I first learned about this with ATI cheating on Quake III in 2001, as discovered by HardOCP. Here's a link to an article about it (original article doesn't seem to be around anymore): http://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-q...

Wayback has it http://web.archive.org/web/20020223144052/http://www.hardocp... along with a link to a German site that points out some of the quality loss in the ATI driver. http://alt.3dcenter.org/artikel/2001/10-24_a.php

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#124
The NYT is being disingenuous in presenting this as VW detecting the EPA test cycle and doing something to cheat. I think they've confused open loop and closed loop engine operation.

VW's 4-cylinder engines which failed the EPA tests are all turbo engines. Turbo engines run hotter than naturally aspirated engines and so, they produce more NOx, since it's one of the high temperature byproducts. In fact, EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) systems inject exhaust into the intake to lower combustion temperatures and NOx output. All engines do this, turbo or not.

Whatever NOx makes it out of the engine can be catalyzed in the catalytic converter if there is enough O2 for the catalyst. All the engine's intake air and temperature sensors, and pre-cat and post-cat O2 sensors exist to balance the gases coming into the catalytic converter to optimize the catalytic reaction.

When the engine is using all of these sensors to fine tune the amount of air, fuel and EGR to maximize catalyst efficiency, it's running in something called "closed loop" mode. The sensors and inputs work in a closed loop to balance the system. This is what happens when you're cruising on the highway or driving around at relatively fixed throttle.

Give the car a lot of gas, and something else happens. All of a sudden, a LOT more air enters the engine. The sensors can't change reading fast enough (mass air flow sensor, for example) or their readings are now out of the sensor's useful sensitivity band (for O2). The engine code knows that sensor capabilities have been exceeded, and it goes into "open loop" mode. In this mode, rather than using sensor readings, the engine reverts to pre-programmed maps, usually indexed by RPM, throttle position, engine load, and boost level. These maps are designed for relatively clean combustion and engine safety, but they will not generate optimal catalyst input gases, and so, the catalyst efficiency drops off tremendously. Furthermore, performance cars will often burn rich (too much gas for amount of air) in order to prevent engine destroying pre-detonation.

Most of the EPA test cycle will happen in closed loop mode. Most high throttle acceleration or "fun" driving will happen in open loop mode. There's the source of the discrepancy between EPA test cycle and real world driving. VW got caught, but every car does this, as we don't have wide-band, high-rate sensors yet at a price point even close to where it would need to be for consumer cars.

(Next time you see someone racing off from a stop light, in pretty much any car, watch the exhaust pipe, you'll see dark smoke. I guarantee you they're running rich in open loop mode).

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#125
post #95

Instead of fining the manufacturer, just fine everyone who owns one. If every VW owner was forced to pay 20k or so, the problem would fix itself.

I'm not sure if you are satirical. How would fining the end users solve the problem?

Because no one will ever buy a VW again, and so other carmakers will take note.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#126
post #108

I wonder if the primary control code should be open source. That's without respect to right to modify or reuse the code, just whether it should be mandatory that it be published. And it'd exclude things like user space apps and UI/UX stuff. But any of the code that controls or affects steering, acceleration, ignition, braking, and lighting, really seems like it's not OK to just consider it a black box, subject to DMC…

If it's just published you can't be sure it's the same code that runs in the car. You should be able to compile the code and inject your locally compiled firmware to the ECU if you want to verify that the car engine is doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#127
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a more charitable interpretation. When engines are colder, they burn less efficiently and produce "worse" emissions. A system that treats the warmup period differently than the steady-state of running a hot engine is potentially quite reasonable.

If you output those same emissions at a different time you haven't really done a lot for environment (except if they're cycled through catalyc converter or DPF filter which are usually less effective on cold start) - you're just gaming the system to get better eco ratings.

[deleted]

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#128

I don't understand how California detected this. The one time I had to take my 2010 Jetta turbo diesel for a smog check, the inspection was ENTIRELY visual. The inspector did not insert a probe into the tailpipe. He did plug the test rig into the OBD-II port under the steering column and turn the key to the accessory position (presumably to electronically capture the VIN), but that's it. I even asked him at the end i…

California has a new emissions check system for vehicles 2000 and newer. No tail pipe probe or dyno regardless of the vehicle. Just visual inspection and plug in the OBDII reader. The OBDII reader checks the sensors for proper functioning and checks the ECU to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. Smog tech only really has to do the visual chek. Diesel trucks also get a snap test (step on the accelerator quickly and diesel smoke must dissipate within several seconds).

Vehicles 1999 and older still get the tail pipe probe and dyno portion as well as the OBDII (if they have OBDII).

[0] http://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/New_Smog_Check_Test.html

[1] http://www.smogtips.com/new-smog-law-ab-2289.cfm

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#130
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like sports, even stiffer fine and ruined reputation on being caught cheating.

How about a temporarily sales ban? Not a fine, just telling them "No new VW are going to be accepted into traffic for the next 12 months." Cruel, but I bet it's effective.

That's not a good idea. If you ban a large auto maker, you might create a shortage of vehicles, driving prices up for consumers. Also, the affected auto maker would surely try to mitigate the damage by cutting costs, closing down factories, firing workers. Dealerships would have to close as well.

In other words, you would cause a lot of collateral damage instead of taking it directly from shareholders via a large fine.

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