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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#71

Post by A_COMPUTER »

tobr wrote: post #59
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.

People don't like being raped even if you've got a socioeconomic explanation for it :-P

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#72

Post by Steko »

Yetanfou wrote: post #69
tobr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.

Denying a problem does not solve it. Please read up on those statistics before you start wielding terms like 'FUD'. The 'U' in this case in not justified as it is known that non-western immigrants are heavily overrepresented in crime statistics. Neither is the 'D', for the same reasons. The mere fact that a large part of the immigrants will not commit crimes does not mean you should ignore or talk down the crimes per…

No one is saying don't talk about the issue. People are pointing out that "rape town!" poisons the well on serious debate. Come on.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#73

Post by tobr »

Yetanfou wrote: post #58
_euvw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1]…

> Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1]

You're citing a report from december 2005 for statistics from 2006?

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#74

Post by mrkickling »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Some families send the strongest/healthiest male in the family since the trip to Europe is so dangerous, but the families often come afterwards. It's easier for them to come legally if they already have a family member in the country.

During the first half of 2015, 2000 women and 4500 men came as refugees to Sweden from Syria, but 3100 women and 2000 men came afterwards as asylum searching family members. In total ~5300 women and ~6800 men (including working visas) came to Sweden from Syria.

I wonder, do you think people from non-western countries has a bigger potential of commiting rape? How different do you think the values of these people are compared to "us"?

http://www.scb.se/sv_/Hitta-statistik/Statistik-efter-amne/B...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#75

Post by Yetanfou »

Steko wrote: post #67
Yetanfou wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1]…

Shouting 'rape town!' helps though, gotcha!

That is what you get when a normal, level-headed discussion on a subject is not allowed. Merely breaching the subject in public invites accusations of racism, xenophobia and discrimination. That is not helpful as it is clear that the problem does exist. That problem needs to be solved, not ignored or hidden under a false blanket of understanding. A crime is a crime, no matter whether the perpetrator is a native-born or immigrant.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#76

Post by phaer »

cel1ne wrote: post #70
usaphp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah and then this happens because they don't want to integrate into European counties because most of those immigrants still think west is evil and they laugh at our values: http://shoebat.com/2015/03/02/austria-makes-new-law-muslims-...

That law basically states that muslim preachers in hospitals or who are teaching at schools or universities have to BE ABLE to speak german, so that the german-only speaking muslims, who exist as well, can understand them. The concept is called "official language of a country". Right-Wing parties in Turkey are criticizing the law. The muslim organisations inside Austria are supporting it. The law has nothing to do wi…

I don't have a strong opinion on the that law, but it's just not true that most muslim organisations in Austria support it. Their official representatives, the IGGÖ are rather critical[1], the muslim youth of Austria strongly opposed it[2]. Both links are in german, sorry.

But you are, of course, right that this law has nothing to do with war refugees entering austria.

[1]: http://www.derislam.at/?f=news&shownews=1960 [2]: http://www.mjoe.at/articles/article/regierung-beschliesst-an...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#77

Post by soneil »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

The demographic 'shock', particularly "upside-down aging pyramids" isn't a problem - it's actually the primary benefit of this migration. "Upside-down aging pyramids" are a problem for us - as the population tends towards older, we have more tax-drains (increasing medical requirements, increasing retirement costs) and less tax-feeders. 18-30yo men, what in another age would have been our definition of eligible conscripts, are exactly the injection required.

Integration is a concern, yes. Language barriers I'm fine with - this is Europe, I don't speak German either - but perhaps the path from temporary to permanent residency needs to be a bit more than paperwork. Some form of (non-military) national service may be ideal.

Germany has a fantastic track-record of vocational / apprenticeship-based education. Perhaps if we can mix such a model with some other requirements (eg, local language), a path could be laid where they not only work for their benefits & contribute back, but also offer a future for them, their family, and a continent that's begging for young blood.

I don't think it's anything to do with "ways of the west", but simply ensuring there's some sort of future ahead of them. Running water stays fresh, standing water grows stagnant.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#78

Post by netrus »

atmosx wrote: post #39
bordercases wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be…

Germany is closing it's borders: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confou... They do! (close the borders).

Pssst, don't tell any Syrian friend, but we only pretend to close the borders. We only control the Autobahn-routes, not the smaller streets, and we control miles behind the border, meaning that refugees are already in Germany and can stay.

Germany tries to create pictures to discourage people from coming, while behaving the same to those who come. It is an interesting approach, and I am not sure yet how I feel about it.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#79

Post by bordercases »

mrkickling wrote: post #74
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Some families send the strongest/healthiest male in the family since the trip to Europe is so dangerous, but the families often come afterwards. It's easier for them to come legally if they already have a family member in the country. During the first half of 2015, 2000 women and 4500 men came as refugees to Sweden from Syria, but 3100 women and 2000 men came afterwards as asylum searching family members. In total ~5…

> difference of values

I think that the extreme cases become more likely for non-Western cultures, even if we assume that the distribution of rapes per ethnicity follows a similar average between populations of West and non-West. Islamic countries are not known for their respect for the sanctity of women, particularly in the Middle Eastern clades of Islam.

(I've had Somalian, Malaysian and Sudanese Muslim friends which were extremely well-adjusted to Western culture and make good claims about women in these countries; but likewise I've had Bangladeshi friends who deplored the situation of women. So I think cultural temperament comes before religious law, but a religion can serve as a strong post-hoc justification for the strongest aspects of that temperament.)

If you're willing to take a scene at its word, there's this: https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_... If this is any representative of the attitude of Islam towards rape, count me as disgusted.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#80

Post by mrkickling »

Yetanfou wrote: post #58
_euvw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1]…

No, the report says nothing like that. It says that immigrants have a 4.5 times higher possibility of being suspscted of rape. This does not mean that 85% of all rape cases are committed by non-western immigrants. This is of course troubling though.
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