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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#51

Post by qcoh »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

>Like unless they have families that they're hoping to have evacuated (why didn't they bring them over in the first place?),

The reasons I've gathered so far are: The journey is dangerous not just because of the risk of drowning. If I recall correctly, there were stories of rape. There's also a law for family reunification (I don't know the details but at least in the case of minors this means they can bring their family). Lastly, many young Syrian men flee because they could be conscripted by the army.

>I don't know how the Europeans intend to get all of these refugee adults up to economic snuff at the same grade of Europeans who were trained in the ways of the West from birth.

I don't think we know either.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#52

Post by bordercases »

socket0 wrote: post #36
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Your numbers can't be faulted, but the risks might be overstated. Based on purely anecdotal evidence (several young Syrian men who ended up in Belgium) I can say that many of these guys do indeed have families they intend to bring over. Because of the danger and uncertainty of the journey, those who could stash their families somewhere relatively safe for a short while did so. They knew it would be easier for them to…

> taxes

I was hoping that it wouldn't come down to that sort of thing - exploiting the refugees as a taxable resource. Because it seems kind of two-faced, to have Janus wear compassion/universalism on one side and to have taxing/demographic sustainability on the other side.

Have some more goddamn kids.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#53

Post by htns »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

>I don't know how the Europeans intend to get all of these refugee adults up to economic snuff at the same grade of Europeans who were trained in the ways of the West from birth.

Is anyone really planning on that? It's much nicer to have an underclass under you. The economic argument is often brought up, but there is little backing, seeing how Swedish and German economies are the strongest in Europe and have accepted tons of immigrants in the past decade or two. It is costly for the state to nurse and educate a native citizen.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#54

Post by EdiX »

friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

> I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats.

AFAIK this is actually the opposite of truth, assuming the migrant/refugee crisis is our fault (and it wouldn't have just happened anyway because of war) it's because we have too much border protection.

You see, the way this works, most of those smugglers just take the migrants/refugees all the way to the middle of the ocean, drop them on a raft, launch an SOS and head back to their origin port. Merchant and military marine that picks up the SOS is then required (by maritime law and, possibly, by human decency?) to go check it out and salvage the people there. Veering off boats is not an option because the boat usually veers off long before anyone gets there.

Over the past two years most of those migrants/refugees have been rescued by a special military operation of border control that has used the names Operation Mare Nostrum, Operation Frontex Plus and currently goes as Operation Triton. This costs 2.9M€/mo.

Arguably if we had less border control more brown people would die on rafts and maybe disincentivize the whole enterprise. Whether this is an acceptable solution I will leave for you to decide.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#55

Post by dan00 »

maxims wrote: post #43
thescriptkiddie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the crisis wouldn't make it go away. Maybe it is possible to keep the refugees out, but that doesn't help them . The whole world has an obligation to help these people.

No one has an obligation to help any one else. You come into this world alone, and you will leave this world alone.

Yes, but if you help other people, then you might realize that you aren't that alone.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#56

Post by toyg »

bordercases wrote: post #52
socket0 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers can't be faulted, but the risks might be overstated. Based on purely anecdotal evidence (several young Syrian men who ended up in Belgium) I can say that many of these guys do indeed have families they intend to bring over. Because of the danger and uncertainty of the journey, those who could stash their families somewhere relatively safe for a short while did so. They knew it would be easier for them to…

> taxes I was hoping that it wouldn't come down to that sort of thing - exploiting the refugees as a taxable resource. Because it seems kind of two-faced, to have Janus wear compassion/universalism on one side and to have taxing/demographic sustainability on the other side. Have some more goddamn kids.

Truth is, most migrants end up benefiting their new country despite a general hostility towards them. It's always been like that, even in XIX century US. So there is no hypocrisy really: we are not letting them in "because they help with taxes", that's a secondary side-effect that we are forced to emphasize in modern debate only because we have to fight naturally-xenophobic elements in our societies.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#57

Post by bordercases »

Squarel wrote: post #48
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

I saw the data you linked, but I don't see the "poor". From what I see, they make up a range of demographics and educational levels. As to why they did not bring their families over in the first place? That is usually because they want to make sure they have somewhere to stay before bringing their families over. Bigger picture. The population of Europe as a whole is 740 million or so. Even if the entire population of…

These are good points and sum up what I think are the strongest contras to my argument. From here it seems reasonable that the problem is spread.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#58

Post by Yetanfou »

_euvw wrote: post #30
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

May I suggest looking up statistics on rape in Norway and Sweden before you formulate your next answer? It has been rather well documented - even though both Norway and Sweden tend to try to hide ethnicity (especially when a non-native is involved, leading to the suspicion that absence of information on ethnicity implies foreign origin of the perpetrator) - that the large majority of rape cases (Sweden: 85%, 2006 [1], Norway 'all reported rape cases committed by non-western immigrants', 2007-2009 [2]) in these countries involve non-western immigrants or their first-generation offspring. This problem will not be solved by looking away. Now that these people seem to be there to stay it is adamant that this problem is solved - not by ignoring it but by acting decisively. Denying a problem does not equal acting upon it. Blaming the victim does not do so either. Trying to mollify the circumstances is counterproductive.

[1] https://www.bra.se/bra/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/200... [2] http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/04/15/nyheter/voldtekt/innenrik...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#59

Post by tobr »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #42
_euvw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status.

Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#60

Post by NietTim »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

> I don't know how the Europeans intend to get all of these refugee adults up to economic snuff at the same grade of Europeans who were trained in the ways of the West from birth.

We are not, they are refugees, not immigrants

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