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A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#51

Post by coldtea »

V-2 wrote: post #17
coldtea wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

> The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. It hardly means that this is the worst thing that could be said about Soviet-controlled Poland > Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US US police is notorious for its brutality, but are these killings ordered by top officials in chain of command? If factory workers go on a strike in the US, are police troops sent in to "shoo…

>US police is notorious for its brutality, but are these killings ordered by top officials in chain of command?

Directly no. They are just nurtured by top officials in chain of command, who could have stopped this shitty behavior in a day if they wanted to, but instead either ignore it or even encourage it.

From people arming police departments with military grade equipment and allowing SWAT teams etc to be used for BS offenses, to right-wing politicians speaking of blacks, latinos etc as lazy, criminals, gloryfying the use of police force, etc.

>If factory workers go on a strike in the US, are police troops sent in to "shoot to kill" them? They did in Poland 30 years ago, eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Wujek*

Back in the day, yes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

And if unions got that organised again to be a threat, then I have no dount they would. Heck, they even killed students:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Not that I'm a fan of those "eastern bloc" states, but I want to put things in some perspective. Saying "they just earned 20 bucks a month" is not enough -- one also has to know how things were for the majority of people in these countries before socialism, in order to compare.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#52

Post by coldtea »

stretchwithme wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Fortunately, there a few of these paradises still available. Productivity and creativity vary a great deal. It is only fair that compensation varies a great deal too. We have systems to day that make it possible to deliver value to millions of people. Those who create and make use of those systems are the ones creating that value. Those who do not don't have some inherent right to what others have produced. But they…

>Which is why even the poor are better off escaping from communism and the foot traffic usually indicates that.

The only thing it really indicates is that the soviet states were run badly and have deterioted into dictatorships.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#53

Post by coldtea »

blumkvist wrote: post #22
coldtea wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Are you seriously suggesting that people living in the US have it worse than in the communist bloc?

Depends.

There are poor people in the US living in comparable (or worse) conditions than people suffered in some of the countries of the "communist block".

I know some older people from the "block" (from Albania and Hungary for example), and some of them look back into that era as "the good times", considering that they were teachers, engineers and other such jobs, and now they clean floors or poor concrete in construction sites to make a living.

Not to mention that not all places were the same quality of living or freedom-wise. Czechoslovakia for example were in far better condition than Albania or Romania.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#54

Post by coldtea »

ericd wrote: post #31
coldtea wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

I think you're forgetting the other bad things he mentioned - having to wait in line all day for the chance to get some bread, for example.

That was in some special periods -- not all the time. He mentions a special circumstance in the article (don't remember which is it).

But did you note that he went from Netherlands and applied for a job there? Obviously Poland was nowhere near as affluent as the Netherlands, but also obviously he didn't apply for a job in a place were waiting in line for bread was something that happened regularly everyday.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#55

Post by coldtea »

hga wrote: post #25
coldtea wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Echoing others, the go-to source for democide tabulates an estimated 10,000 to 54,000 Poles killed by their government in the 1948 to 1987 period.

Can we count blacks, latinos, indians etc killed by cops without a crime in that statistic as well? And even white people, from the Kent State shooting to Wacko?

Or stretch it a little to include kids send to die in wars half a planet away, while young people all over the country were protesting against them?

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#56

Post by x0054 »

coldtea wrote: post #49
x0054 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on! Did you live through Soviet style communism? Please don't glorify that BS unless you have. A party functionary would be entitled to free servants to help them move, clean there garden, do all kinds of physical labor for them. Those servants were called enlisted soldiers. A party functionary would be entitled to a yearly, 3 month vacation on the black sea, where they would live, in a palace by the sea. And wh…

> Did you live through Soviet style communism? No, but I lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by the US (though, admittedly, 30+ years later Clinton on an official visit did say the US was sorry for its support of it) imposed on my country so that a large percentage of my countrymen who preferred socialism wouldn't attempt to try it. Oh, and it was preceded by a prolonged civil war (provoked by the UK, and…

So you lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by US and UK, and during that time tens of thousands of your countryman died due to the government. So obviously the Soviet system, which under the rule of Stalin killed millions of people (as in close to 50 million) during that same time is much better. Yes a job for everyone, even if that job is digging up ice dirt in the Siberian Gulag until you die from exhaustion. Come on, have some perspective, both systems are totalitarian regimes with horrible outcomes for the populations. In your case they were killing, torturing, and exterminating the left leaning intelligentsia. In the Soviet Union they did exactly the same thing to all the right leaning intelligentsia, actually all intelligentsia, because smart and educated people might see through all the bull shit the party was shoveling down people's throats. At the end of the day, in both cases a ton of people died horrible deaths simply because of what they believed in. How is one system better then the other? Well, other then in absolute terms, because at least in your case they didn't manage to killing quite so many people, but the outcome is the same. I am amazed that someone who lived through one totalitarian regime would be so in favor of another! Any system that subverts the rights of an individual under some bullshit pretense that it's for the "good of the nation" is absolutely wrong!

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#57

Post by x0054 »

usaphp wrote: post #43
x0054 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, indeed, the "магазин" or the "гастраном" :) I also still remember the experience of having to bring a 3 liter pickle jar to buy milk from a barrel on wheels. It's funny because sometime we would see the barrel pull up, but we wouldn't know what they were selling. Could be mil, could be beer, could be kvas (not sure how to translate). We would rush in, because what ever it was, it's better than nothing ;) I also…

It's called "Гастроном" not "Гастраном"

Thanks, yeah, no Russian spellcheck here, and it's been so long, not that I was ever good at spelling :)

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#58

Post by krallja »

_mgr wrote: post #45

I've read this before. Has this already been posted to HN? I am trying to convince my native born Polish girlfriend to move back for a year to live/work/travel. I figure I will pick up the language far quicker than my current pace. She's a little apprehensive about our earning potential there. The Polish Zloty does not appear to be the strongest currency and the average wage is half of some of it's other EU cousins.

It's from 2014, and by an infamous HNer, so you've almost certainly had a chance to read it before.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#59

Post by viraptor »

_mgr wrote: post #45

I've read this before. Has this already been posted to HN? I am trying to convince my native born Polish girlfriend to move back for a year to live/work/travel. I figure I will pick up the language far quicker than my current pace. She's a little apprehensive about our earning potential there. The Polish Zloty does not appear to be the strongest currency and the average wage is half of some of it's other EU cousins.

I can understand it. Moved out around 9 years ago and I really wouldn't go back for a longer period. Tech jobs I see are not that exciting, unless you work in some startup-like company. (although it got way better in the last few years, can't deny this) And there are just so many things I see every time I go back, that I don't want to experience in normal life. If you're successful after moving and don't have strong family/friends ties, it's hard to find good reasons to go back.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#60

Post by selimthegrim »

coldtea wrote: post #49
x0054 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on! Did you live through Soviet style communism? Please don't glorify that BS unless you have. A party functionary would be entitled to free servants to help them move, clean there garden, do all kinds of physical labor for them. Those servants were called enlisted soldiers. A party functionary would be entitled to a yearly, 3 month vacation on the black sea, where they would live, in a palace by the sea. And wh…

> Did you live through Soviet style communism? No, but I lived through a military dictatorship sponsored by the US (though, admittedly, 30+ years later Clinton on an official visit did say the US was sorry for its support of it) imposed on my country so that a large percentage of my countrymen who preferred socialism wouldn't attempt to try it. Oh, and it was preceded by a prolonged civil war (provoked by the UK, and…

At first I didn't believe the UK bit but then I read the book by Mazower, "Inside Hitler's Greece". Everybody who thinks their colonial outrages were limited to the Fuzzy Wuzzies and the Mau Mau should read it.
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