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A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#11

Post by V-2 »

> The Polish secret police (the UB or MBP) was quite active and if you didn’t know someone personally you could not trust them

I don't mean to nitpick, but UB was renamed to SB in 1956. MBP ceased to exist in 1954.

And by the way, knowing someone personally didn't mean you could trust them, either.

Pretty much everyone could be a police informant, especially if you were a person of interest : your husband, or your doctor...

The number of informal collaborators approached 100 thousand people in the 80s, which means about 0.5% of the nation (only counting adults).

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#12

Post by ilaksh »

digi_owl wrote: post #8
ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

On that note, if one go back to old guy Marx we find that he was no fan of centralization. His thinking was towards workers owning the factory they worked at. Then again he also apparently had himself talked in circles to make his findings fit the labor theory of value. Still, while mostly we hear about worker exploitation etc he did dial in on the issue of debt and banking. And how there was a second struggle betwee…

Not sure what you are ultimately aiming at but although flows is a good way to think of traditional economics, economics as commonly understood is fundamentally flawed and unable to serve the purposes it is supposed to.

Effectively the money flow regulates ALL aspects of our society. The problem with this is that its like doing medical science where the only aspect of the body anyone really understands is the cardiovascular system.

We need to integrate more physical and social sciences and better values into our economic systems.

The moneyflow religion must be converted somehow into a dynamic technological decentralized automated system incorporating data and feedback loops ensuring human and environmental health. And this needs to enable freedom and the ability to evolve.

But elitist VC or technocratic engineers rationalizing the flawed, limited belief system around the one-dimensional money system is not constructive.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#13

Post by coldtea »

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

>think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context.

Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or three-strikes) and it's not that different. Widespread surveillance? Check, and even more detailed.

Of course there are differences too. E.g. now nobody is guaranteed to have a job or a home, and inequality can be much higher than in those old times (where a party functionary just made something like a few times more, not several orders of magnitude more, like a CEO does).

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#15

Post by stretchwithme »

V-2 wrote: post #11

> The Polish secret police (the UB or MBP) was quite active and if you didn’t know someone personally you could not trust them I don't mean to nitpick, but UB was renamed to SB in 1956. MBP ceased to exist in 1954. And by the way, knowing someone personally didn't mean you could trust them, either. Pretty much everyone could be a police informant, especially if you were a person of interest : your husband, or your do…

Perhaps Jacques was actually there 30 plus years earlier than he claims :-)

Maybe that Citroën has a flux capacitor!

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#16

Post by ews »

idlewords wrote: post #6
twqqis wrote: post #5

For as long as I can remember I've had an interest in going to live in another country. But the older I get and the more I get to understand people and the more I travel, the more I start to hold myself back from actually moving to another country. Even if just for a year or two. I think I realise more and more that cultures really are different, vastly more than I once thought. It has me wonder what I would actually…

You are missing out. It's a stressful experience but it will change your life.

I am in my fourth country, and I can't recommend traveling and especially living in a different country with a very different culture enough.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#17

Post by V-2 »

coldtea wrote: post #13
ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

> The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police.

It hardly means that this is the worst thing that could be said about Soviet-controlled Poland

> Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US

US police is notorious for its brutality, but are these killings ordered by top officials in chain of command?

If factory workers go on a strike in the US, are police troops sent in to "shoot to kill" them? They did in Poland 30 years ago, eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Wujek

> E.g. now nobody is guaranteed to have a job or a home

A guaranteed home for which you would wait 20 years :))

While earning 20 bucks a month.

For which you often couldn't even buy basic goods...

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/22380/kolejka_prl_internauta_550.jpe...

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/23333/puste_haki_550.jpeg

^ Equality.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#18

Post by dman »

goodcanadian wrote: post #10
twqqis wrote: post #5

For as long as I can remember I've had an interest in going to live in another country. But the older I get and the more I get to understand people and the more I travel, the more I start to hold myself back from actually moving to another country. Even if just for a year or two. I think I realise more and more that cultures really are different, vastly more than I once thought. It has me wonder what I would actually…

We're on our fourth country, and we've traveled to many more. I think what you learn is that there are many ways to do different things. Other cultures get some things very right that your home culture gets wrong. Your home culture gets some things right that other cultures get wrong. But overall, the main takeaway is that it broadens your view of the world and it opens your eyes to possibilities that you would not o…

Could you elaborate on some positive differences where witnessing a different culture improved your outlook towards life in a meaningful way?

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#19

Post by x0054 »

tinbad wrote: post #2

Growing up with my grandparents in the 80s in Moscow, I remember standing in line in front of a place literally called 'Store' for hours. Nobody knew what the line was for or what it was the store was getting in that day. Some people spend the night waiting just to be in front. After standing in line all day, finally by dusk a truck pulls up. Everybody looking in anxiety and worried about not being enough merchandise…

Yes, indeed, the "магазин" or the "гастраном" :) I also still remember the experience of having to bring a 3 liter pickle jar to buy milk from a barrel on wheels. It's funny because sometime we would see the barrel pull up, but we wouldn't know what they were selling. Could be mil, could be beer, could be kvas (not sure how to translate). We would rush in, because what ever it was, it's better than nothing ;)

I also remember a really funny story from my friends dead about his visit to Cuba. He went there in the early 80s, I am guessing. He went there with a delegation on some kind of diplomatic mission. Up on arrival he bent over to pick up his bag, and, as luck would have it, ripped his pants. Now, as you might imagine, being a proper Soviet and all, he was only traveling with that one pair of dress pants. So he asked their translator if there is any way they could go to a store of some kind to purchase another pair, before his fancy diplomatic meeting.

So they went to the store, supposedly the main fashion store in the center of the city. When asked, the clerk told them: "Oh, no, we haven't had dress pants in for at least 3 weeks." My friends dead, desperate, asked: "Well, what about just needle and some thread?" Clerk: "Well, we have thread, but needle? Hmm, we haven't had those in years now." Eventually they ended up finding a seamstress who fixed the pants, but it was all very hush hush, because it was a crime for her to offer a private service, or for them to solicit it.

Yeah, so communism rocks indeed :)

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#20

Post by odiroot »

V-2 wrote: post #11

> The Polish secret police (the UB or MBP) was quite active and if you didn’t know someone personally you could not trust them I don't mean to nitpick, but UB was renamed to SB in 1956. MBP ceased to exist in 1954. And by the way, knowing someone personally didn't mean you could trust them, either. Pretty much everyone could be a police informant, especially if you were a person of interest : your husband, or your do…

There was also a big issue of huge cooperation of the clergy. Don't know the concrete numbers but Anne Applebaum explains it in her "Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe".

Our catholic church was the most penetrated one in the whole Warsaw pact.

This means people literally didn't have anyone to trust. Just try to imagine that. Three generations of people shaped by this feeling, ending up completely paranoid or indifferent/escapist.

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