A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#21

Post by stretchwithme » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:29 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #13

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Fortunately, there a few of these paradises still available.

Productivity and creativity vary a great deal. It is only fair that compensation varies a great deal too.

We have systems to day that make it possible to deliver value to millions of people. Those who create and make use of those systems are the ones creating that value.

Those who do not don't have some inherent right to what others have produced. But they do get a great many things for a lot less money because of those technologies. And many things that wouldn't exist at all without them.

Which is why even the poor are better off escaping from communism and the foot traffic usually indicates that.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#22

Post by blumkvist » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:33 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #13

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Are you seriously suggesting that people living in the US have it worse than in the communist bloc?

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#23

Post by x0054 » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:38 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #13

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Come on! Did you live through Soviet style communism? Please don't glorify that BS unless you have. A party functionary would be entitled to free servants to help them move, clean there garden, do all kinds of physical labor for them. Those servants were called enlisted soldiers. A party functionary would be entitled to a yearly, 3 month vacation on the black sea, where they would live, in a palace by the sea. And when I say a palace, I mean literally a fucking palace. There were very privileged people in the Soviet union. Now it's true that even those people would constantly live in fear, because on minute you could be on top, and the next you are dragged off by the secret police.

And guaranteed house? Like the house that my best friend grew up, with his mom, his dead, and his sister, all sleeping in the same bed in their 250 sqft studio.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#24

Post by rasz_pl » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:42 PM UTC

The bit about getting a work permit is a little weird. At that time average monthly salary was ~$5. His Dutch parents could literally just send him lunch money, and it would be enough to for an upper class lifestyle at the time.

Flower/grape/whatever picking for a month in the west was enough to finance rest of the year.

It was as bad as in Greece right now, everything worth something got sold to multinationals for pennies on the dollar. All the famous polish brands absorbed into mcdonalds/cocacolas/pepsis of the world.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#25

Post by hga » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:42 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #13

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

> think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. Tempered why? The worst thing he could say about Poland was a corrupt police. Constrast with the hundrends of innocent police killings in the US, or the hundrens of thousands incarcerated for BS charges (like drug pocession or thre…

Echoing others, the go-to source for democide tabulates an estimated 10,000 to 54,000 Poles killed by their government in the 1948 to 1987 period.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#26

Post by V-2 » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:44 PM UTC

x0054 wrote: post #19

tinbad wrote: post #2

Growing up with my grandparents in the 80s in Moscow, I remember standing in line in front of a place literally called 'Store' for hours. Nobody knew what the line was for or what it was the store was getting in that day. Some people spend the night waiting just to be in front. After standing in line all day, finally by dusk a truck pulls up. Everybody looking in anxiety and worried about not being enough merchandise…

Yes, indeed, the "магазин" or the "гастраном" :) I also still remember the experience of having to bring a 3 liter pickle jar to buy milk from a barrel on wheels. It's funny because sometime we would see the barrel pull up, but we wouldn't know what they were selling. Could be mil, could be beer, could be kvas (not sure how to translate). We would rush in, because what ever it was, it's better than nothing ;) I also…

It's so awesome, why didn't all these Western fans of it flock in while they still could is beyond me ;)

> Could be mil, could be beer, could be kvas (not sure how to translate)

Kwas seems to be just "kvass" in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass

It's more popular further to the East (than Poland), still I remember we'd brew it at home back in the day, as a little boy I liked to pretend it was beer

Speaking of beverages, everyone from the former Soviet bloc surely remembers these machines :)

http://img.interia.pl/biznes/nimg/1/k/Woda_saturatora_534387...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Saturato...

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#27

Post by da02 » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

tinbad wrote: post #2

Growing up with my grandparents in the 80s in Moscow, I remember standing in line in front of a place literally called 'Store' for hours. Nobody knew what the line was for or what it was the store was getting in that day. Some people spend the night waiting just to be in front. After standing in line all day, finally by dusk a truck pulls up. Everybody looking in anxiety and worried about not being enough merchandise…

Did you see the abacus being used in "stores" or restaurants back then? John Stossel visited a govt restaurant back then and the waiters were lazy even when the cameras were around. I do remember reading that many people who fled East Germany wanted to go back. I'm guessing it was mainly adults. One couple who left Soviet Russia mentioned on a daytime talk show the one thing they did not like about the US was the higher taxes. (Book: For Good and Evil by Charles Adams)

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#28

Post by obrero » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #8

ilaksh wrote: post #4

I think its important for Hacker News readers to read this because techno-communism is becoming a very serious force in western politics. It needs to be tempered with a historical context. The problem we should focus on is over-centralization, which comes easily out of a competitive OR cooperative society. Yes to holistic measurements, efficiency and equality. But do that on a meta, protocol level that allows for div…

On that note, if one go back to old guy Marx we find that he was no fan of centralization. His thinking was towards workers owning the factory they worked at. Then again he also apparently had himself talked in circles to make his findings fit the labor theory of value. Still, while mostly we hear about worker exploitation etc he did dial in on the issue of debt and banking. And how there was a second struggle betwee…

> Then again he also apparently had himself talked in circles to make his findings fit the labor theory of value.

And what are the record and movie companies imploring us with, when they say we shouldn't copy ("pirate") songs, movies or software? They say that the value of the product came from the work of the artists or programmers, and they deserve to be paid for their efforts. Well what is that but the labor theory of value?

Even corporate America has cast off the subjective theory of value. The labor theory of value was and is correct, but more and more we see things with a new form. A commodity used to be a scarce thing, but nowadays people increasingly create "commodities" which once built are infinitely reproducible for almost no cost, or actually no cost. To where it is not even a commodity any more. So even Marx's theory of the 19th century commodity is upended. Not only that - these new commodities are reusable - from hiphop artists sampling older songs, to developers reusing components. Production is changing, so theories of production must change also. Neither the marginalists nor Marx described what is going on now and will be increasingly so. Although in the sense that Marx posited that production would be radically changed in the future from the 19th century factory system, in that sense he was correct.

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#29

Post by da02 » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

ews wrote: post #16

idlewords wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing out. It's a stressful experience but it will change your life.

I am in my fourth country, and I can't recommend traveling and especially living in a different country with a very different culture enough.

Which countries have you visited? Any favorite cities/towns?

Re: A Western Kid Living in Communist Poland (2014)

#30

Post by V-2 » Sun, Aug 23, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

rasz_pl wrote: post #24

The bit about getting a work permit is a little weird. At that time average monthly salary was ~$5. His Dutch parents could literally just send him lunch money, and it would be enough to for an upper class lifestyle at the time. Flower/grape/whatever picking for a month in the west was enough to finance rest of the year. It was as bad as in Greece right now, everything worth something got sold to multinationals for p…

Of course you're right, but then again I believe it was obligatory by law to be employed somewhere.

Those who weren't used to be considered "social parasites" (official terminology, see eg. http://www.zielona-gora.po.gov.pl/index.php?id=36&ida=3790)

Now, whether or how this law was actually enforced is another matter, but at the very least not having a "normal" source of income was frowned upon, so I imagine already standing out as a foreigner you might prefer to keep a straight record.