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My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

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Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#81

Looking at this story (the wider Amazon story) it seems to me a lot of the value is getting extracted from employees in a sort of creeping way. So you might go to an interview where the manager says there's pager duty now and again, but it's not too intense. You get on the job, and it's a whole lot more intense than expected. You can't leave because you've just turned down a bunch of other offers and moved towns. You…

I think that's what happens in most companies all the time, all around the planet. But the reason is not evil management and it's not a result of planned activity. Management is also hard. They also have to deliver too much with too little budget at hand. The only difference is that they earn more money and they often don't have to pull the team out of the B.S. themselves on weekends and late night hours. They are naive people like you and me. There are things that are unmanageable so they ask you to help. Then they get used to your help and unconsciously consider it normal. Then their budget gets cut, or they have to cover for other departments who can't deliver as much as expected. And surprise, there is even more work for you.

I don't say that for us to excuse bad management. But I think it's very important to understand the "other side". Understanding them can provide you with options. Just saying they are idiots or evil bastards leaves you powerless.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#82
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And (in the UK at least) the demise of unions has seen the earnings ratio of company bosses to employees rise to levels not seen since the 19th or early 20th century

That's happening across the world at the moment isn't it? Doesn't seem to be linked to the demise of unions. Admittedly, there needs to be a new version of unions, the next evolution. We need the next Marx to bring the pendulum back.

demise of unions

The demise of unions is also a general phenomenon across the western world. It's not helped by the migration of lots of factory industries to parts of the world without strong unions and with plenty of hungry workers.

Ultimately unions have only one effective negotiating tool: the strike. And if it's easy to replace striking workers, it's not an effective tool. It's also very disruptive (in the bad sense) when it is effective. UK public opinion turned against unions when they rationed electricity to 3 days a week.

We need a better check on unlimited greed than the blunt threat of going up against the wall in a Communist revolution. A lot of people have cited Piketty as the next Marx, but there don't seem to be Piketty-ist factions.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#83

Looking at this story (the wider Amazon story) it seems to me a lot of the value is getting extracted from employees in a sort of creeping way. So you might go to an interview where the manager says there's pager duty now and again, but it's not too intense. You get on the job, and it's a whole lot more intense than expected. You can't leave because you've just turned down a bunch of other offers and moved towns. You…

This is part of the reason why employees work such long hours in Japan. Overtime is largely unpaid for white collared workers. Coercing an employee to work ever-longer hours is effectively "free" (in the short term, until some start to physically and emotionally break down).

Because changing jobs is so difficult in Japan, there's often no recourse for the worker.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#84
post #46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people use this excuse all the time when I challenge them to quit a job they hate and get one they love. If you are good at what you do, another company will buy you out of any financial strings a current employer has on you. Let's assume the worst though and that by leaving you just eat the money. So what? You can always make more money, but you can't get years of your life back. I find people in this industry…

by leaving you just eat the money This requires that you have a good line of credit or savings that you can use to buy food, pay mortgage, etc. Most people don't have that.

Most people choose to wildly overconsume, and as a result don't have any savings. This is a choice.

It's also a choice to enter into highly leveraged options purchases on illiquid assets which require major lifestyle changes to walk away from (mortgage). Complaining that the mortgage inhibits lifestyle changes is no different than complaining "I dropped $800k short selling AMZN, now I need to make margin call".

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#85

Somewhat off topic perhaps, but what exactly does therapy do? Has anyone here had therapy? If so, can they explain how talking to a psychologist cures a medical condition? Is it significantly different from talking to a priest or a faith healer?

Imagine something like a phobia. A real, strong, phobia, diagnosed by a real doctor. This phobia affects the day to day life of (let's call her) Ann. Let's pick elevators for the phobia.

When someone mentions an elevator Ann's heart rate increases, her palms get a bit sweaty, she starts breathing deeper. This is what most people call a "fight or flight" response. Her body is flooded with adrenaline. Her reaction is stronger - worse - when she sees an elevator even if she knows she does not have to ride that elevator. And now, at work where she has to walk past a bank of elevators to get to the stairwell she has to take 20 minutes to get herself past those elevators.

Her friends know she's "scared of elevators", but don't know the strength of the fear. They might say things like "but your fear is irrational! Elavators are very safe." Or "you should feel the fear and do it anyway!" (Quoting the title of a quite good book, but ignoring the content of that book.). And Ann probably says this kind of thing to herself. "Why am I being so ridiculous?"

If this was a rare thing (like flying is for most people) Ann could just get a prescription for diazapam, lorezapam, etc.[1]. But Ann needs to pass these elevators everyday.

Ann decides to just get over it. She decides to ride an elevator. As she walks towards it her breathing changes, her palms get sweaty, and her brain is arguing "you're going to get stuck!" "You're being stupid, just do it". She pushes the button and waits for the ding. Her stress pevels build. The door opens, and she gets in. The door closes with that odd elevator lurch. Again, her stress rises. She's visibly distressed. The elevator rides two floors then the door opens. Ann rushes out. But she doesn't feel a sense of victory. She feels a sense of crushing defeat, of shame even. And, as she gets further away from the elevator her body rewards her with endorphins. So what's actually hapened is tha. She has reinforced her fear, she has made it stronger.

Ann decides to go to a therapist. She carefully picks a qualified registered therapist and avoids the cranks and frauds. She picks someone who practices "cognitive behaviour therapy".

At Ann's first meeting she says "I know I'm being silly, but I really want to get over this ridiculous fear".

Her therapist (let's call her Beth) gently disagrees. "No, it's not ridiculous. It obviously causes you a lot of distress." - this is part of just establishing a relationship, but it's also important that Ann is finding her own answers. Beth continues "what are you scared of when I say the word 'elevator'?"

Ann says that she is scared the doors will get stuck and that the lift will be stuck between floors and she'll be stuck in there.

Now Beth starts the therapy. In a safe environment, away from any elevators, Ann is asked to list her "hot thought" ("The lift will be stuck between floors and I'll be trapped!", how strongly she believes this (1 to 5 or 1 to 10 or percents) Ann says very strongly, 10 out of 10, what the emotion caused by the hot thought is ("fear") and again how strong it is, and finally Ann is asked about her evidence for believing this. ("I read about the guy who got trapped in a lift for hours and I keep seeing stories like that") Beth at no point contradicts Ann.

Beth then asks Ann to sit with these feelings for a few moments. (Less than 3 minutes!) then Beth asks Ann to think of alternative evidence. Beth doesn't supply alternative evidence. So, Ann might start with a weak challenge to her thinking. She might say "Even though I keep seeing lots of articles probably hundreds of people get elevators everyday without problems." She's then asked to re-rate how strongly she believes her hot thought and how strongly she feels her fear. This is an iterative process! Those numbers are still probably very high.

Beth then begins a process of controlled desensitisation. Ann is in control of this - Ann will never have to do something she doesn't want to do. Ann is shown pictures of elevators. She's shown a video clip of the outside of an elevator. She's shown a first-person perspective of someone riding the elevator. She's taken to a building that has elevators. She's asked to call an elevator but not ride it, just watch from the outside the doors opening and closing. She calls an elevator and touches the doors. She calls an elevator and gets in and out while Beth keeps the door open. Eventually she calls an elevator, and gets on it with Beth, and travels a few floors. Every time she does one of these things she has to provide her hot thought, her strength of feeling, and her evidence and her alternative evidence. Beth might start challenging Ann's evidence "Do you think it's only hundreds of people? Do you think it might be very many thousands of people get an elevator each day with no problems?" "Do you think you seek out these stories of people being trapped? Why do you think they are reported?"

After about eight hours of work Ann will be able to call an elevator, get in it, and ride it for several floors (going up and down). She might not like it, but her fear will be under her control.

We know that for most people like Ann the CBT will be effective for at least two years, often longer. For some people it's a cure.

Mental health diagnoses tend to be clumpy - "depression" probably isn't one illness, but a cluster of different illnesses that affect people in different ways. Meds have varying efffectiveness, sometimes for genetic reasons. For some people meds alone are a treatment. For some peopel CBT alone is effective. Some people need both. A few people get little to no benefit from the different emds they try and don't have much luck with CBT and they go on to try stronger meds or mindfulness, or even things like ECT.

There are some interesting Cochrane reviews of meds and CBT. There are some interesting NICE advisories about different emthods of providing CBT or different meds.

We know that for some people talking therapies are as effective as meds.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#86
post #49

Looking at this story (the wider Amazon story) it seems to me a lot of the value is getting extracted from employees in a sort of creeping way. So you might go to an interview where the manager says there's pager duty now and again, but it's not too intense. You get on the job, and it's a whole lot more intense than expected. You can't leave because you've just turned down a bunch of other offers and moved towns. You…

I always wonder whether the stock of Amazon should decrease after the HR-gate. I would expect the company to eventually start an HR policy and lose money on that. It seems the stock price didn't move, but I'm not a finance expert and there must be other events this month. https://www.google.fr/search?q=amzn&oq=amzn&aqs=chrome..69i5...

TL;DR: Amazon is trading at too high a price for massive movements, instead look at the volatility of the options market or for an instrument that allows buying part of a share of Amazon

Full thing: It might not have moved because of the liquidity of the market. Due to their stock price, people won't generally own lots of the stock, so any sell orders would go through the SOES (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-order_execution_system). I'm not sure whether a Level 1 book would include that information, I have a feeling it doesn't. [citation needed]

However, SOES only works for lots of at most 1000 and only on stocks up to a value of $250. Amazon is currently trading at $535.

Occasionally another instrument will be set up that works in parts of the stock, which will be a lot more volatile, so you could buy 1/10 of an Amazon share. Alternatively, people start trading in options on the stock.

So you get the situation where the share price for Amazon looks fine, but the options market dries up or the volatility of derivative instruments is massive.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#87
post #68
post #40

I have a four-week rotation on-call where I work. Pretty much the same workload as discussed in the article with it. Calls and text messages at 3am, can't be more than 15 minutes away from an internet connection (remote desktop software on Android is a godsend.) While it doesn't feel unbearable, and pays fairly well (at least for the area I'm in), it definitely has completely destroyed my sleep schedule. I no longer…

> The part I dislike the most is that they moved me to a salaried position that pays ~10% less without the on-call overtime bonus. On-call being just "free labor" makes it much more frustrating. Ouch! When our team was asked to be on-call (this was a few years ago at another company), we negotiated a fixed monthly bonus and I don't think we would have continued to be "on-call" if they had reneged on that. I think it…

On-call rotation is listed in the job description.

We have at-will employment here, so a contract change is basically, "accept the change or go someplace else to work." Which works against us in a down economy in a position that still pays better than most other companies would for the same work.

I make around $70k myself. The average here is around $50k. Moving's not really an option due to family. Maybe in 4-5 more years moving will be on the table, but by then I'll be closing in on 40.

We probably get around 3-4 calls a week, usually between 1am and 8am (non-staffed hours), and another 6-12 text message alerts a week. Some weeks are better, some are worse. My issue is once I've woken up to handle something, it takes me a good 1-2 hours to fall back asleep again. I obviously can't treat that with sleeping pills since I need to be able to wake up again. So I go the opposite route and try to keep myself awake when I need to be.

We can't do much to fix outage issues, as we're part of a larger organization, and we monitor processes for everyone else. It's our job to contact their on-call support staff to get things fixed.

I think the idea was to relieve all of the tier-3 teams from needing to implement their own separate, patch-work application health monitoring systems; and instead centralize all of the monitoring to one team. Some of the better teams do have their own health monitoring as well; and in those cases, we're more of the "fallback" in case their monitoring doesn't catch issues.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#88
post #68
post #40

I have a four-week rotation on-call where I work. Pretty much the same workload as discussed in the article with it. Calls and text messages at 3am, can't be more than 15 minutes away from an internet connection (remote desktop software on Android is a godsend.) While it doesn't feel unbearable, and pays fairly well (at least for the area I'm in), it definitely has completely destroyed my sleep schedule. I no longer…

> The part I dislike the most is that they moved me to a salaried position that pays ~10% less without the on-call overtime bonus. On-call being just "free labor" makes it much more frustrating. Ouch! When our team was asked to be on-call (this was a few years ago at another company), we negotiated a fixed monthly bonus and I don't think we would have continued to be "on-call" if they had reneged on that. I think it…

On-call has to be a separate, significant financial line item. It can't be just 'rolled into your job' - what happens when you're understaffed, for example?

On-call means you can't get drunk, go see a movie, visit distant friends or whatever. It's a significant impact on your life - plus, of course, you're expected to work your normal full day after a hard night. I simply stopped going out to bars with my friends, even though I wasn't drinking. The benefit of socialising didn't make up for standing in a cold alleyway in winter talking an enduser through a tech problem for 45 minutes at a time.

"Fuck you, pay me" applies here. Salary is for normal work hours - on-call spreads that to 24/7 for a week. On-call is also not trivial, so it shouldn't pay peanuts. Remember it's the company that wants 24/7 coverage; it should be a cost to the company to provide that. I'm a 'best effort' guy, and I don't like to see my stuff failing. I'd rather fix it on my own time than let it rot until business hours roll around. But I'm not giving my employer priority time over the my personal life for free.

If ever you need a question for that part in job interviews, on-call is a good one. Also worth scrutinising in the contract.

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#89
post #24

I do believe there must be something wrong at a significant enough scale to warrant NYT's attention. There are always outliners (i.e. unhappy and stressed out staff) in every company, the question is how big is the population.

>I do believe there must be something wrong at a significant enough scale to warrant NYT's attention. it may be "wrong" from the POV of NYT or other tech outsiders. What i've over the years understood from various friends/acquaintances is that it is not "something wrong", it is just the "normal" mode of how whole AMZN operates. People going there know it (and if they don't - not checking Glassdoor is theirs fault, no…

Your argument sounds like it is not something wrong to commit crime in a crime-ridden neighborhood, and it is the victim's fault since that person didn't read news or does their due diligence.

Interesting :)

Re: My husband needed therapy after working for Amazon

#90
post #78
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

by leaving you just eat the money This requires that you have a good line of credit or savings that you can use to buy food, pay mortgage, etc. Most people don't have that.

So? You dont have to pay them back immediatly. I have walked away with neither credit or savings before. Thrown away stock and titles. There is never a good reason to let someone abuse you and hold you hostage from living a life you enjoy. I swear this is like listening to people in abusive relationships with tunnel vision. "If we break up I will be poor!" The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away. Lit…

The world didn't end any of the times I have walked away

Not for you, but it certainly does happen. If you look at it from the other way round, quite often when you find a middleclass person who's ended up homeless or an alcoholic or suicidal it started with losing their job.

Yes, it's an abusive employer/employee relationship. But there's never a bright line crossed between "ordinarily bad" and "abusive".

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