GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause • Hacker News Board

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#31

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:13 PM UTC

intortus wrote: post #14

thomasfoster96 wrote: post #3

Looking through some of the issues on that repo, the amount of bad faith people have in the very idea of a code of conduct is astonishing. Not to mention the sheer ignorance of issues affecting minorities within the tech community (seriously, Jon Stewart could have had a weeks worth of material). Sure, the wording of the code of conduct wasn't perfect, but it'd be much nicer if people wanted to see it improved in goo…

It seems like the loudest voices are brand new accounts with some sort of anti-diversity agenda.

[deleted]

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#32

Post by thomasfoster96 » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:13 PM UTC

zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

Yeah I don't get the 'textual' descriptions bit - and physical contact doesn't really apply to an online community. I suppose describing sexual contact is probably unwanted, but that's covered under the sexual harassment section.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#33

Post by zxcvcxz » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

plonh wrote: post #29

zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. The OCC is bringing some of that professionalism to open source communities. Why would it be a joke to ban annoying personally-targeted behaviors that are unrelated to the work product? I can't think of a case where discussing cuddling someone is appropriate for a Pull Request, mailing list, or IRC chat

hugs plonh

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#34

Post by vezzy-fnord » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

plonh wrote: post #29

zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. The OCC is bringing some of that professionalism to open source communities. Why would it be a joke to ban annoying personally-targeted behaviors that are unrelated to the work product? I can't think of a case where discussing cuddling someone is appropriate for a Pull Request, mailing list, or IRC chat

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment.

Wait, really? I've never posted it myself, but textual descriptions like "[hug]" as a way of expressing gratitude or solidarity are common and mundane in plenty of communities.

Now, sure, cluttering technical discussions with stuff like this isn't preferable. To call it "clearcut sexual harassment" is ludicrous and completely devalues the term in question.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#35

Post by thomasfoster96 » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

plonh wrote: post #29

zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. The OCC is bringing some of that professionalism to open source communities. Why would it be a joke to ban annoying personally-targeted behaviors that are unrelated to the work product? I can't think of a case where discussing cuddling someone is appropriate for a Pull Request, mailing list, or IRC chat

I for one read that part of the code of conduct and think of a few grey areas.

I mean, it's not uncommon for people to write 'hugs' or something like that - surely that should be fine (assuming it's not wildly off topic)?

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#36

Post by rorykoehler » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

sagichmal wrote: post #30

anon3_ wrote: post #12

I group "Code of Conduct" with Political Correctness. For anyone interested in a good read on the subject, check out End of Discussion: How the Left's Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters, and Makes America Less Free (and Fun) by Mary Ham and Guy Benson. It's an excellent read, and shouldn't be too much of a sting to the social outrage panderers out there.

> I set up my web browser to automatically change > "political correctness" to "treating people with > respect" https://twitter.com/byronclarknz/status/628702214391902208 If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

I was thinking of doing something similar as a chrome plugin to counter propaganda on mass media sites but I never got around to it. You've inspired me to bump that up the weekend project to-do list again

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#37

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

jameskilton wrote: post #22

nadams wrote: post #19

I feel like an open code of conduct is unnecessary. Really - the only thing you need to remember is - be nice to each other and be patient with those supplying advice and those who are asking for advice. (I have screenshots of discussions that violate this simple fundamental rule). I have flagged 40+ comments (that were accepted and acted upon) on stackoverflow alone of people just being stupid jerks. The SVN people…

It shouldn't be necessary, but it is. We live in an age where if an action is not explicitly called out as unacceptable, a significant number of people will perform said action, because if it's not explicitly unacceptable, it's obviously acceptable. In short, if you don't say I can't abuse people, it's ok for me to abuse people. Oh, and these people will also happily throw around the "First Amendment" as justificatio…

[deleted]

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#38

Post by jp_sc » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

thomasfoster96 wrote: post #13

zxcvcxz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a lot of people are just upset because they feel the CoC discriminates against them. You are harassed and have privileges ? I don't care, being harassed is still not fine whether you have privileges or not. Seems to sum up what most people are complaining about.

Yeah, I agree that a few sections were worded badly (the thing about reverse-isms isn't really needed, and just raises more questions than it answers). it's just that a lot of people don't seem to have the patience or the good faith to see these sorts of issues fixed.

I agree, the maintainers could have merge one of the many pull request than removed the reverse -ism section, but apparently it was something they couldn't agree on.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#39

Post by jp_sc » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #17

ForHackernews wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Github recently adopted this Code of Conduct for all of their own-brand projects, and they were encouraging other open source projects to adopt it as well: https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-condu...

But the question is, are they also supporting/adopting this change/suspension? That's not clear from the linked post.

At least the GitHub's Atom and Electron projects are evaluating alternatives. See: https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/8206#issuecomment-128858...

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#40

Post by EliRivers » Sat, Aug 08, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #20

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

It's offensive, to a woman, to talk to her without permission from her male guardian.

It's offensive, to a woman, to ask for some man's permission to talk to her.

Both of these are true. Both of these are false. In order to know what's offensive for any given group, a written summary is extremely helpful. Posit a group of people brought together from around the world from many varied cultures. They have no way to know what is, and is not, acceptable behaviour. Insisting that people just "behave like adults" is no help at all when different societies can have wildly different views of the correct behaviour of adults, and you also get the effect that each of them believes they are behaving like an adult and it's the other people who are wrong. It's a recipe for disaster.