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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#221

Post by GoToRO »

moneywoes wrote: post #207
sdevonoes wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. As much as I think this is true, somehow experience tells me the other way around: valuable employees leaving company X doesn't make company X sweat. Company X just hires more... and there is always someone who can be hired. A couple of months later, everything is alright again and once…

So employers don’t value long tenured devs? Isn’t there opportunity cost in those months

There is. But the problem is that all employers are bad so none of them will lag behind when they loose good people.

The truly good employers are a rarity.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#222

Post by jkingsbery »

edent wrote: post #142

Join a union. You as an individual have very little power. You don't know the intricacies of employment law. You aren't a trained negotiator. A Trade Union has a bunch of lawyers and negotiators who work for you. Join a union. Convince your colleagues to join. Use collective bargaining to negotiate with your employer.

I see a ton of comments on this post that indicate how much power an individual can have. Many people point out negotiating from a position of power, for example by doing good work, or by being prepared to leave for a more remote friendly company. Honest question: Why do you think involving lawyers would improve the situation? Why do you think this is a matter of employment law?

For what it's worth, I worked for a company where most software engineers were unionized. The union accomplished almost nothing on behalf of employees besides taking a chunk of their pay check and otherwise complicating situations that people are able to work out themselves.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#223

Post by DrAwdeOccarim »

moneywoes wrote: post #207
sdevonoes wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. As much as I think this is true, somehow experience tells me the other way around: valuable employees leaving company X doesn't make company X sweat. Company X just hires more... and there is always someone who can be hired. A couple of months later, everything is alright again and once…

So employers don’t value long tenured devs? Isn’t there opportunity cost in those months

It's a gradient. I saw this play out recently where a top engineer dictated he needed to work remote three weeks a month. Management was OK with it but were clearly disappointed because he is an incredible primary contributor, manager, and is part of the cultural bedrock of the department. Their argument to him was that his career development would be stunted, to which he replied "no, I don't think it will be." and left it at that. He's now working his remote schedule, so we'll see what happens. I guess the point I'm trying to make is maybe 5% of the company could pull this off. Nearly everyone else management would be far less inclined to accommodate.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#224

Post by lmilcin »

scotty79 wrote: post #209
lmilcin wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. Everything is a negotiation. You have only limited power over your employer. If you think you can "dictate", you don't understand the relationship you have. If what you think "dictating" works, that is because it really is a negotiation and your employer decided they will meet your demands. "Dictating" may get you a label attached, that you are hard to negotiate with, fussy, capricious, et…

If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.

First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice.

Will the company fold if you leave it?

I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company.

> If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything.

No, you just decided to give them your terms and allow the company to only approve or deny them. You take away their ability to negotiate with you in response to your demands but you did not take their ability to make their own decision. You did not dictate anything.

You would dictate if you had actual power over the company.

You are not really a dictator if they can refuse your offer, are you?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#225

Post by johnwalkr »

dbenny wrote: post #54

CTO at Markforged here. If you can't work it out with your employer hit us up. We're hiring remote software engineers. We'll ship you a printer so you can dev from home. Good luck! Like a lot of other commenters have posted - you have options.

I'm really happy to see you on here and see that you have remote positions.

I have a Mark2 at work. It's really amazing, the software for it is great, and I plan to fly some parts made with it in a lunar mission!

The carbon fibre demo keychain part always blows people away when I invite them to try and break it. For those that don't know, markforged makes a 3d printer that can embed a continuous carbon fibre strand into each print layer, making for very stiff and strong parts.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#226

Post by the_gipsy »

bigwavedave wrote: post #133
snow_mac wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can if they fire you though...

> You can if they fire you though... As far as I know, that's if you're fired without cause. Who do you think the state contacts to find out why you were let go? Be careful going down that route.

I'm in Europe. The government passed a somewhat vague law that basically "recommends facilitating working from home if possible" during the pandemic.

Still as I said, either way I'm prepared to get fired with or without case.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#227

Post by draw_down »

DrAwdeOccarim wrote: post #223
moneywoes wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So employers don’t value long tenured devs? Isn’t there opportunity cost in those months

It's a gradient. I saw this play out recently where a top engineer dictated he needed to work remote three weeks a month. Management was OK with it but were clearly disappointed because he is an incredible primary contributor, manager, and is part of the cultural bedrock of the department. Their argument to him was that his career development would be stunted, to which he replied "no, I don't think it will be." and l…

So be part of the 5% if you want that. Problem solved.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#228

Post by draw_down »

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

Ok... but you’re still literally asking your boss “will I be fired”. Not exactly a great negotiating posture! Not a great position to be in overall.

Instead, if you’re good enough, find somewhere where this isn’t an issue. That way you can work however is best for you without literally asking your boss if you’re going to be fired. Sheesh.

If there are places that are amenable to what you want, quit wasting your time going against the grain and just move on. Even if you got them to agree, it will constantly be an issue. They will always act like they’re doing you a favor and continually remind how weird it is that you work remote.

Just leave all this behind, it isn’t worth it. There are places where they just don’t care about this, it just won’t be an issue.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#229

Post by jon-wood »

milenafagandini wrote: post #43

IMO employers have an irrational fear that people that work from home don't work at all and say its "the office culture" and being a team. If their opinion is already set on this, try negotiating half the week at the office and the other half from home. So both of you get the best of both worlds.

I've done this before, and I'd argue its more the worst of both worlds. With people who are kind of but not really remote the company never actually adjusts in the ways needed to properly accommodate it - you just end up with people saving things up for "when you're in the office", with connotations that if you'd just be like everyone else that wouldn't be needed.

If you're going to work remotely, work somewhere that's already set up to handle that and where everyone gets it, otherwise you're doomed to a career of being given the annoying jobs that don't require much collaboration because people don't understand how to make that work if you can't sit round a table.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#230

Post by tzsdata »

hammock wrote: post #125
whatshisface wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dangerous subject, but it only takes a slight change in wording to turn a take-all-the-marbles conflict into a positive example of you offering them an opportunity. See, "Give me remote or I walk." Versus, "I found this great role at this other company, and the work they do satisfies me on a deep personal level. However, it's not remote, and if you let me stay remote, my present position would be way better. W…

One is an ultimatum/threat, and the other is simply expressing facts/position as part of a negotiation (it also reserves your right to act however you choose, and does not immediately put the relationship in jeopardy). The former is not advisable, ever. I recommend everyone read Getting to Yes.

I second the Getting to Yes recommendation. It's the best book I've found on negotiating that is actually applicable in the real world.
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