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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

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Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#201

Post by chrisseaton »

BeetleB wrote: post #173
chrisseaton wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only 16k for a 25 year old but around 160k for an average 65 year old. I mean you can just go on a price comparison site right now for yourself and see that this isn't even remotely the price quoted for multiple providers and a wide range of levels of cover - nothing is even remotely close to even 16k.

I think those quoting huge costs are looking at whole life whereas the rest are looking at term life. Looking at one place, if you're 30 years old, and getting only 100K for whole life, the premium is over $1400/yr. Multiply that by 10 for 1M and it's 14K/yr. People often get these expensive plans because they can treat it as a retirement fund, and can borrow against it at any time with no penalties, etc. With term l…

Isn’t that life assurance not life insurance?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#202

Post by marcus_holmes »

perlgeek wrote: post #24

Key to a negotiation is understanding what the other party wants (and what you want, of course). WHY do they want you to work on premise? Wanting your presence is just a means to an end. There could be many reasons, like: * They think it's easier to control how much somebody works if it's on premise * it might be easier to manage * it might be inertia * they think it's more efficient * somebody is trying to exert con…

This. Knowing why they want you to work in the office is the first step. Get clarity on that (and that might mean reading between the lines - the boss might be lonely and just want everyone back in the office, but they'll never admit that).

Once you have clarity about why they want you in the office, then you can begin to work out how you can craft a deal.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#203

Post by wodenokoto »

jonathanfoster wrote: post #101
ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

@ineptech knows what he's talking about. Follow this advice. Here are some more ideas to consider. Source: 18+ years of experience as an engineer, manager, and director. The theme is make your manager's life easy and he/she will do whatever they can to help you out. Depending upon the size of your company, your manager may have more or less discretion with WFH. Whatever you do, don't put him/her into a corner with an…

> Keep offering up options that make their life easier.

Can you give some examples of what offers like that could be?

I also like the Seinfeld-esque advice of just staying at home, although I really wouldn’t have the guts to go through on that.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#204

Post by michaelt »

onion2k wrote: post #172
pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

You also need to consider what this looks like from the other side - an employee has looked a new role, interviewed for it, and been given an offer. That's a strong signal that they're unhappy and looking for the exit. You may say the fact you're not remote is the reason, but what if it's also about money or the work is boring or there's friction with your manager? The only information the company has is what you're…

Tech employees don't need to actively look for a new role - many people routinely receive cold calls from recruiters.

And although some companies make their hiring process like pulling teeth, there are plenty of employers where you only need a single day off work.

And don't all managers try to keep an eye on employees' frustration levels? If you don't, you should; it's kinda important for retention. If you only learn people are unhappy when it's too late, how are you going to know to take corrective action?

Of course, there will always be some people who get offers it's pointless to match - if I develop business software, and a guy who's always wanted to be a game developer gets a job offer from Valve, maybe he should take it :)

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#205

Post by anon98356 »

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

One thing I would say on claiming health reasons is, from the employers perspective it might be taken more as "I'm not ready to return to the office" instead of "I don't want to come back ever".

They are still going to expect you back at some point so this may result in just kicking the can down the road.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#206

Post by teekert »

pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

“Nearing end”… Our CEO just stated that between the large pool of unvaccinated people worldwide and the rise of new mutation we’re look at at least 2 years of “not normal”. Also, he said we’re going for 60% in office soon. But my direct manager just says: whatever comfortable situation you can arrange with your team is fine.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#207

Post by moneywoes »

sdevonoes wrote: post #198
jasonkester wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't negotiate. Dictate. If you're already in place and have proven that you're good at what you do, this is the way to go. "I wanted to let you know that I'll be staying remote from here on out. This last year has been a huge improvement in quality of life for me, and honestly I couldn't imagine working out of an office again. I'd love to stay with you guys (this is a great team), so let me know if that's an option…

> Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. As much as I think this is true, somehow experience tells me the other way around: valuable employees leaving company X doesn't make company X sweat. Company X just hires more... and there is always someone who can be hired. A couple of months later, everything is alright again and once…

So employers don’t value long tenured devs? Isn’t there opportunity cost in those months

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#208

Post by michaelt »

ineptech wrote: post #147
gnicholas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns? Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?" remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-fragile aunt.) I used to be a lawye…

> It seems like you've thought about this quite a bit — what would the reasoning be? I have not, no, this is just guesswork, but the reasoning is how much of an unknown quantity the covid risk still is. If Bob's doctor says it's not safe for Bob to return to the office because Bob's wife had a pulmonary embolism two years ago, who's to say the doctor is wrong? If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way h…

> If Bob's psychologist says he has PTSD and the only way he can work safely is from his couch, how can you argue that allowing him to wfh isn't a "reasonable accommodation", after he's done it for a year and gotten a good annual review?

I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure you can't get 'reasonable accommodations' of much substance for a secret medical condition.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#209

Post by scotty79 »

lmilcin wrote: post #184
pfp wrote: post #56

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job n…

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. Everything is a negotiation. You have only limited power over your employer. If you think you can "dictate", you don't understand the relationship you have. If what you think "dictating" works, that is because it really is a negotiation and your employer decided they will meet your demands. "Dictating" may get you a label attached, that you are hard to negotiate with, fussy, capricious, et…

If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand.

So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#210

Post by postsantum »

rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

Those people in India who are qualified to do the job, already have one. You would be competing for them with all other companies who offer remote job
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