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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#991

Post by wotwot »

georgeorwell wrote: post #470
BrianEatWorld wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.

What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies…

She should really evaluate her career trajectory in the light of this incident. Drama queens don't make good PR candidates.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#992

Post by groby_b »

tomp wrote: post #825
groby_b wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not commenting on the "getting fired" part. That's a tricky decision, but keep in mind the people in question were there as "Evangelists". Which means you really want to watch what you say. If you spoke about the cool Mexican restaurant during the presentation, I'd sure as hell call you out on it. But it's still different from the jokes in that it doesn't make anybody feel excluded. Sexual jokes do - they signal…

> why do people still believe sexist jokes are cool? Do you see a difference between sexist jokes and jokes about sex, or are these categories the same for you? This question might sound provocative, "Are you and idiot or yes?" kind of question, but it really is not. Personally, I think there is a difference, but I'm rather unique in this regard, as I don't feel discriminated/excluded/offended if someone makes a joke…

I can't speak for black people - lack of qualification, so to speak -, but I wouldn't be surprised if they considered it offensive. It's perpetuating a stereotype.

It's a benign stereotype as far as that goes, but it still does. It's also a joke I'd restrain to people I know fairly well - it veers into incest territory.

None of that is to say that I'm terribly offended by it myself, but I can see the potential to offend. And as such would reserve use. That's really what all this is about - try to respect the other person at the receiving end. And if you don't know them, try to be as considerate as possible.

Not because telling one such joke per se makes you a bad person, but because it might offend somebody who is not you or not your background. And because the courteous thing would be to try not to offend.

If you told it to me as an actual joke (not as an example as here), and assuming we'd have never met, I'd probably reply with a "Dude, that's kind of not appropriate. Please don't go there". If you told it to me in a large crowd of your friends, and I'd be alone, I might choose to not respond at all, or let somebody else handle this. It's a sad fact that as a woman, calling out inappropriateness usually means you get a lot of flak, quite frequently threats. (See what's happening to Adria right now).

I'd assume that's why she opted for a public shaming. (The appropriateness of which is a whole 'nother topic. I was not comfortable with that, either.)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#993

Post by groby_b »

devilshaircut wrote: post #839
groby_b wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I happen to be the woman who actually enjoys hanging out with her current colleagues - who all strangely managed to grow up past puberty.

I respect women like youself so I will reply in the same way I would reply to any male poster on this forum. What reality do you live in? Do you honestly think it is only prepubescent teens who make jokes involving sex and reproductive organs? Do you further deny that such jokes can actually be funny? I'm not going to debate what is work appropriate. But I think you grossly mischaracterize the nature of people and hu…

No, but I think only pubescent teens enjoy telling those jokes to as wide an audience as possible. They might well be funny, but what's funny to one person can be hurtful to another person. Which is why you keep that kind of humor out of the workplace (and the public).

That's the whole point. Not that jokes like that are told. I find it sad that some of the ones being told are utterly degrading, and I'd hope people would let go of those, but as far as sex jokes in a group of friends go? Sure. Have at it. They have consented.

At work, I have not consented to be subject to those jokes, and there is no reason to tell them. That is what this is about.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#994

Post by rabino »

mwetzler wrote: post #741
rabino wrote: post #372

It is incredible that Adria is presenting herself as a kind of hero here. The problem for "women in tech" is exactly people like her.

really? that's the problem? it's not wide-spread societal bias against women and beliefs about a women's role in regards to science and career? Come on.

And in this case you get all that because...? A dongle joke in the row before her...

Yeah. Super reasonable.

The problem is victimizing herself using gender as an excuse, in such a lame way. She's making more to harm women in tech than a dongle joke.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#995

Post by [deleted] »

katbyte wrote: post #117
blhack wrote: post #7

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. --And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here-- The c…

as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. Sh…

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#996

Post by [deleted] »

seivan wrote: post #941
mtrimpe wrote: post #931

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if that's not an ad-hominem I don't know what is. Adria got pissed at overhearing some inappropriate jokes, snapped a picture and tweeted her indignation. It might not have been the wisest thing to do, but she didn't fire that guy; she just got offended. It's her right to get offended here and it's the other guy's right to (accidentally) offend her. The only dicks here are a) Playhaven unless, like I suspect, the…

IT IS NOT HER RIGHT TO GET OFFENDED. Now you're probably wondering why I used all caps. I really don't have a good explanation for that. Because once I read your post, that's the first thing that sprung to my mind.. in Helvetica-Neu, bold 38px.

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#998

Post by namecantbeblank »

mr-hank wrote: post #642
rdtsc wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to think of it, Twisted also makes me uncomfortable. Quick, call Jesse Noller and security and escort Glyph out of the building.

To be fair to PSF Jesse Noller was not involved, and we were not escorted out of the building. Their accounting of the issue can be found here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

I am curious, what do you think would have been the appropriate response, if any, by Ms. Richards to your comments? Many have posted that she should have minded her own business or just moved to another spot. What would your advice be in situations of this nature?

Also, if she had turned around and verbally handed you your ass, would that have offended you? I'm talking about her dropping a series of f-bombs, etc. Would you have considered that overreacting? I'm asking because in other comments elsewhere on the internet, many have suggested that she should have turned around ripped you a new ass.

One more question, if she had turned around and asked you to refrain from making the comments, without ripping you a new ass btw, would you have stopped? Many men will not as is just eggs them on to escalate whatever their saying. I've seen this on many occasions. What would your response have been to her request?

Thank you for taking time to address my comment.

PS - And don't worry, you're a straight, white male in America in the tech industry. You'll be given another job out of spite if nothing else. LOL! (It's kind of true though...) They hate this woman and since all straight, white men are victims [INSERT MASSIVE EYE ROLL HERE] you'll be "vindicated." I think Anonymous has already taken of that btw. It's all good. Keep saying whatever you want, whenever you want, to whoever you want. It's your world honey, we just live in it.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#999

Post by CRConrad »

btilly wrote: post #612
katbyte wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the forking joke yea, but that was even more benign, the dongle joke occurred afterwards after i assume some time had passed.

Why do you assume that some time had passed? I did not get that impression from her article. (But it is not specified either way, so time might have passed.)

If nothing else, SOME time would HAVE to have passed, to get from one subject to the other. For one person to finish one sentence, and another person to start another.

Time enough for her to turn away, and the assumption that she wasn't part of the conversation any more to be reasonable?

I don't know that it was... Any more than you know it wasn't.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#1000

Post by cfc_uk_ »

mcherm wrote: post #865
georgeorwell wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies…

You write: > All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you…

2 things:

Harassment is normally defined not by the intentions but how the action is perceived. Therefore she does not have to justify what is or what is not offensive...

HOWEVER - any sexual harassment policy will also state that you should try to let the person know that the actions are offensive to you, if you do not feel comfortable doing so, you should follow the procedures in place, i.e. she should have just contacted the event organisers and let it end there.

What she did was - what others have already said, she tried to envoke the powers of soc med to venture on a personal vendatta to 'punish these guys for everything they've ever done wrong (and any other man for that matter) and it backfired.

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