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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#991

Post by Razengan »

dang wrote: post #953
Razengan wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@dang: You previously said in another comment: > The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. "Boo $BigCo", "yay $BigCo" fan-v.-antifan cage matches are not curious conversation. We want curious conversation. If you really desire that, then please consider making some fundamental changes to how HN voting and auto-moderation works. I…

Comments sometimes get downvoted in the first minute. That's just how stochastic processes work if you have enough data, and there are a lot of people reading these threads. These discussions are not one-sided—they're two-sided at least, which is one reason people get so mad at each other. Each side feels like the discussion is one-sided against it though. I certainly agree that internet dynamics favor indignation, b…

> Comments sometimes get downvoted in the first minute.

Making them invisible to other readers and pushing them down, like the example [0] above.

All it takes is, what, 2 or 3 downvotes to prevent thousands of other users from even seeing a comment?

> These discussions are not one-sided—they're two-sided at least

On this very page, there were only 2 comments for most of the time, without clicking "More": Yours, and the one favoring Epic.

Any comments with an opposing view appeared briefly before being driven out in under a minute, again like that example [0].

> it's not clear what any technical changes could do to mitigate it.

On Reddit, some communities hide karma scores for a specified amount of time.

HN could do the same: Do not show the score and do not let the score affect a comment's visibility for N hours.

That would at least ensure that every voice has a chance to be heard, and reduce the emotions which result from seeing yourself instantly downvoted if you don't agree with the louder voices.

For spam and more severe violations, there's always the Flag button.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24314105

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#992

Post by danielscrubs »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

The 30% tax that everyone have might actually be a good thing. This makes the market for another OS champion way more likely. Pop OS mobile? Amazon? The price to create an OS is humongous so the rewards has to be too.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#993

Post by greycol »

danielscrubs wrote: post #992
AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

The 30% tax that everyone have might actually be a good thing. This makes the market for another OS champion way more likely. Pop OS mobile? Amazon? The price to create an OS is humongous so the rewards has to be too.

But that's the problem with oligopolies, the reward is fictional as all that happens is the existing market players stop taking so much. This means the ROI for a new competitor is much worse than what you'd assume on it's face, it could even be negative.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#994

Post by romanoderoma »

JiNCMG wrote: post #697
jonny_eh wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, if I can buy an iPhone from a store (like Target), and it contains a store… why can't I get Fortnite from the App Store then buy V-Bucks from Fortnite?

You can also before leave Target you can pickup a vbucks card that cost Epic 30% as well.

Conversely, if you sell iPhones you only get 10% at most by Apple (Retailers' margins have been reduced to 4.5 per cent from 6.5 per cent, and it further reduces to 1.5-2 per cent if the customer opts to pay by card for the iPhone X).

Why?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#995

Post by mullingitover »

paulnechifor wrote: post #984
mullingitover wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on an operating system designed for general computing Apple could easily make the case that the platform was never designed for general computing. It was never an open platform, and what Epic is asking is for the government to 'compel speech' from Apple in the form of changes to their product in order to make it one.

What does this have to do with speech? And yes, the courts can compel you to do something you don't like. That's what the law is. If you steal an candy bar, the government can "compel speech" in the form of forcing you to return the stolen property.

> If you steal an candy bar, the government can "compel speech" in the form of forcing you to return the stolen property.

This is a great example of a thing that is not remotely 'compelled speech.' Here's the wiki article on the topic[1]. There's a pretty high bar for the government to create exceptions to the First Amendment.

A better example of compelled speech is the FBI trying to require Apple to write software that would give police a backdoor into any iPhone user's phone[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compelled_speech#United_States

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/03/what-we-talk-about-whe...

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#996

Post by kuschku »

risyachka wrote: post #641
weixiyen wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not getting the special treatment they want They are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for the courts to curtail Apple's absolute power over how applications can be installed on an operating system designed for general computing. That would be a game changer for the entire developer ecosystem. Whether that's good or bad is another debate, but the industry-shifting impact it could have is undeniable.

It is not an abuse of power when you created a phone many years ago, and when it was way less popular you told everyone beforehand that it will be impossible on install random software, only though store. It is called a built-in feature and iPhones were designed with it from the very start.

The first sold version of the iPhone had no app store and only allowed web apps to be used. Without Apple having any say over what you could install or not.

It was also marketed accordingly.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#997

Post by kovacs_x »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

How about- it goes to EU/US's court for anti-monopoly and dominatory behaviour and Apple is ordered to separate it's HW business from SW business and allow other "appstores" as well?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#998

Post by Grustaf »

Aeolun wrote: post #561
_qulr wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPhone is not a store. The App Store is a store. Epic wants to be on the iPhone, but not necessarily in the App Store. Ideally, Epic wants to run its own store on the iPhone. In any case, App Store is the only store in town, where the "town" is the 1.5 billion iOS users. If there's only 1 store, with no competing stores, that's an entirely different situation legally.

Yeah, I bought a $1000 device, but somehow Apple gets to decide what I run on it? I just cannot see how that is a desireable situation.

If you don't like that situation then look around for another device without this limitation. Besides, you can always get a developer account and run whatever you want on it.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#999

Post by m4rtink »

JiNCMG wrote: post #746
m4rtink wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, how could Epic continue developing unreal engine for iOS without a developer account? I thinl this nicely sumariges whats wrong - why the hell should one need an account somewhere to develop software for an OS! Thats a totally arbitrary limitation and as nicely illustrated by Apple - very very dangerous.

You need an account to develop for Xbox, Sony and Switch.

Sure and while that's still bad IMHO, for general purpose devices this should simply not be required ever.

I can develop and distribute software for my tablet (Android), Notebook (Linux/Fedora), gaming PC (Windows), smartphone (Sailfish OS) or e-reader (Kobo) without the need to open an account with a third party and be at their mercy.

Sure, in some cases a repo system account can make things easier, but I can just as well put the source and binaries on a website and any users wanting to use that will not be needlessly hindered by stupid OS maintainer policies.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#1000

Post by Razengan »

dang wrote: post #953
Razengan wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@dang: You previously said in another comment: > The idea here is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. "Boo $BigCo", "yay $BigCo" fan-v.-antifan cage matches are not curious conversation. We want curious conversation. If you really desire that, then please consider making some fundamental changes to how HN voting and auto-moderation works. I…

Comments sometimes get downvoted in the first minute. That's just how stochastic processes work if you have enough data, and there are a lot of people reading these threads. These discussions are not one-sided—they're two-sided at least, which is one reason people get so mad at each other. Each side feels like the discussion is one-sided against it though. I certainly agree that internet dynamics favor indignation, b…

As for

> Rate limiting isn't based on votes. Moderators rate-limit accounts when they post too many low-quality comments too quickly and/or get involved in flamewars.

I had never encountered that in all my 6 years on HN, until recently when I tried to take the side of the mob's targets as loudly as the voices decrying them in such "conversations".

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