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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#381

Post by yyyk »

outworlder wrote: post #337
yyyk wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality of the legal system is that all small companies would just get worn out and forced to settle against Apple, regardless of the justice of their complaint. No company smaller than Epic could afford to file such a case. I wonder whether any company could become large enough without having some way for people to argue that "it is not the general this particular battle needs".

Or, you know, you could get multiple companies working together. Why does it have to be a single company?

Yes, that would be possible. However, it is difficult to get multiple parties to cooperate and coordinate on an expensive for a long time. It requires a high degree of trust, or some form of legal instrument. Trust isn't very much around these days, maybe some clever legal instrument could have done it?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#382

Post by paxys »

glofish wrote: post #148

Epic had a golden goose here that printed money for them. Now they are shooting the goose because they want a bigger share of the egg. The goods are all digital with no lasting or intrinsic value to speak of. The only reason Epic has the cash flow it has is that people don't fully understand this yet. Instead of riding the wave they are getting off of it. Can people sell the goods that they buy from Epic? What will h…

People said exactly this when Epic picked (and won) a fight with Sony over crossplay on PS4.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#383

Post by Gene_Parmesan »

outworlder wrote: post #335
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

I agree. Epic could have taken the matter directly to the courts and taken action (whatever it was) after a verdict. Heck, they could even have tried to make a case to the European Union, which seems to have a knack for pursuing this kind of thing. A ruling over there wouldn't directly impact the rest of the world, but it could get the ball rolling. Instead, they decided to make a spectacle of this whole issue to try…

Under American law there has to be an actual harm (meaning alleged harm). Speculative lawsuits where you ask the courts to rule on something ahead of times is not allowed. It's just not how this country views its court system. The courts are for resolving specific conflicts that have occurred -- with factual histories playing key roles in determining which precedents may apply.

The larger topic of which this is a part is something called "standing." Lack of standing is quite a common reason for a court to deny hearing a case. Not only does there have to be a harm, the party suing has to be the party that suffered the harm. So you also cannot sue on behalf of others.

This is the reason for the initial actions Epic took. Tim Sweeney has been chomping at the bit for this sort of suit for years. But they needed a harm to use as the locus for a suit. There has certainly been a big PR campaign surrounding it to try to sway public opinion to Epic's side, but the action itself was necessary.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#384

Post by m3kw9 »

MaximumMadness wrote: post #21

Apple is truly doing themselves a disservice here, if Epic wins this battle Apple will undoubtedly be painted as the bad guy, and other major companies will smell blood in the water when it comes taking down a competitor. Case in point; Tinder, Microsoft, Facebook, Spotify have all openly backed Epic and started to call attention to features that are impacted by this 30% fee. Status quo isn't going to cut it, and it…

That’s funny, it’s all calculated. Not because of them wanting the best for users, but as a side effect from them getting richer.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#385

Post by dehrmann »

dogma1138 wrote: post #57
MaximumMadness wrote: post #21

Apple is truly doing themselves a disservice here, if Epic wins this battle Apple will undoubtedly be painted as the bad guy, and other major companies will smell blood in the water when it comes taking down a competitor. Case in point; Tinder, Microsoft, Facebook, Spotify have all openly backed Epic and started to call attention to features that are impacted by this 30% fee. Status quo isn't going to cut it, and it…

Microsoft takes 30% on Xbox plus its much more expensive to develop and publish on that platform overall. Neither Tinder nor Spotify will transfer any savings to the end users. Spotify has been ramping their sub costs considerably my sub went up by like 150% in the UK over the past 3-4 years. Tinder employs discriminatory pricing by charging certain genders, age groups and sexual orientations more for their premium s…

> my sub went up by like 150% in the UK over the past 3-4 years.

Spotify is currently £9.99/mo, same as 2015.

https://www.spotify.com/uk/premium/

https://web.archive.org/web/20150208012649/https://www.spoti...

Unless you mean on Apple Pay.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#386

Post by urda »

MaximumMadness wrote: post #21

Apple is truly doing themselves a disservice here, if Epic wins this battle Apple will undoubtedly be painted as the bad guy, and other major companies will smell blood in the water when it comes taking down a competitor. Case in point; Tinder, Microsoft, Facebook, Spotify have all openly backed Epic and started to call attention to features that are impacted by this 30% fee. Status quo isn't going to cut it, and it…

> if Epic wins this battle Apple

That's a big IF. You will find it damn-near-impossible to have any legal standing when you willfully violate the terms of service with a provider as openly as Epic did.

Apple is fully in the right here, and as a consumer I'm glad Apple isn't messing around with their software security. What Epic did was down right sneaky, and they are (rightfully) being punished for it.

Epic started this mess, the law and legal judgements have made it very clear how they could have avoided this, and they didn't. Your feelings, personal device choices do not change facts.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#387

Post by _qulr »

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands.

Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now.

I don't think Epic ever intended to release the new Fortnite season on Apple platforms.

This is a long play, not a short play. In the short term, Epic loses money by not having Fortnite on Apple devices. But in the long term, it's much better for Epic to break Apple's App Store monopoly.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#388

Post by treis »

outworlder wrote: post #335
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

I agree. Epic could have taken the matter directly to the courts and taken action (whatever it was) after a verdict. Heck, they could even have tried to make a case to the European Union, which seems to have a knack for pursuing this kind of thing. A ruling over there wouldn't directly impact the rest of the world, but it could get the ball rolling. Instead, they decided to make a spectacle of this whole issue to try…

>Epic could have taken the matter directly to the courts

Probably not. Part of the reason Apple has prevailed in the past is the lack of direct consumer arm from their actions. By offering the discounted rate it's no longer disputable that Apple's actions harm the consumer.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#389

Post by Fej »

glofish wrote: post #148

Epic had a golden goose here that printed money for them. Now they are shooting the goose because they want a bigger share of the egg. The goods are all digital with no lasting or intrinsic value to speak of. The only reason Epic has the cash flow it has is that people don't fully understand this yet. Instead of riding the wave they are getting off of it. Can people sell the goods that they buy from Epic? What will h…

> The goods are all digital with no lasting or intrinsic value to speak of. The only reason Epic has the cash flow it has is that people don't fully understand this yet.

People understand perfectly well that Fortnite skins have no intrinsic value. They buy them because they enjoy the game and the skins have subjective value to them. Maybe the game will be around in a decade, maybe it won't; it doesn't matter.

Fortnite is far from the only game with paid cosmetics, it's a model that appears to work quite well from a business perspective, even over time. CS:GO has had weapon skins in lootboxes for 7 years now. (That's just one example.)

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#390

Post by munificent »

yyyk wrote: post #245
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Sweeney may be a wonderful man who loves open platforms, apple pie, and kittens, but: - Android is clearly more open than iOS, but Epic is also suing Google. So is this really about sideloading? From that suit, it sure doesn't sound like it. - When you do sideload Fortnite on your Android device, from what I understand, you can't actually sideload Fortnite directly. Instead you have sideload... the Epic Games Sto…

The reality of the legal system is that all small companies would just get worn out and forced to settle against Apple, regardless of the justice of their complaint. No company smaller than Epic could afford to file such a case. I wonder whether any company could become large enough without having some way for people to argue that "it is not the general this particular battle needs".

It's shame that we all just accept today that a sufficiently large enough corporation is above the law. :(
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