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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#991

Post by Mangalor »

rpiguy wrote: post #408
mason55 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions, in my experience, exist to help keep mediocre, unmotivated employees employed. One has no incentive to excel, as promotions are based on years "served", much like prison. There is nothing inherent in unions that make them operate like that.

Unions operate financially like churches. They depend on the dues (tithes) paid by their membership. The more members you have, the more influence and power you have. This incentivizes unions to never voluntarily reduce their numbers. The more mediocre the employees, the more protection they need from the union, and thus the more power the union has over the employee population. The ideal union employee to a union bo…

We should advocate union reform rather than ditching them entirely then.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#992

Post by OJFord »

aidenn0 wrote: post #974
OJFord wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could seriously do with more RAM, but I don't need a $4k computer. In fact, since I have a MacBook but would be more than happy with a (Linux) ThinkPad, it might not even cost more. My point is, we don't need 'hardware investment' for the sake of it. If places started doing that I'd rather BYO device, and pocket the difference between what I need and what they budget for.

I think it's the disconnect between "You can't have 50 square feet of office space" compared to in the 90s where you had potentially 5 figures worth of hardware under your desk.

I suppose, but then the reason's boring isn't it? They're different budgets.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#993

Post by tqi »

lewilewilewi wrote: post #126
tqi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional athletes in the US need unions because the leagues are granted a legal monopoly. AFAIK most European soccer professionals (where there is more options and competition between leagues) do not have player unions / Collective Bargaining Agreements.

You mean like the PFA [1] who are the oldest professional sportsmans union in the world? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Footballers'_Asso...

Interesting - as I said I'm not too familiar with the EPL/other euro leagues. When I had tried to google Football unions I did find that PFA wiki, but couldn't tell if they actually are involved in collective bargaining with the leagues. As far as I could tell, no such agreement existed?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#994

Post by Apocryphon »

Aunche wrote: post #989
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #988

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ask again, and? Unionization is collective action by a group of workers. It will provide them the ability to negotiate future issues (i.e. not wanting to host Nazi kickstarters). Of course they have everything to lose if kickstarter loses money, the first people laid off aren't CEOs. No workers = No Kickstarter. That's it.

No they don't lose anything. Kickstarter can't claw back their wages. Unlike, a factory worker, they can easily find another job. They get paid a salary to do a job, not to protest business decisions. If they want to protest something, they can, but they shouldn't expect any protection from being fired because they're literally refusing to do the job they were paid to do. Do you think a book store employees should re…

What's wrong with workers protesting business decisions? Ignore the culture war angle for a second; what if they were protesting apolitical business decisions from management that they believe would be calamitous to the financial fortunes of the firm? What if there is mismanagement at play? Then what's the recourse besides organizing for collective action- Speaking up at all hands, just to get rebuffed? Leaking bad news to the press? Breaking the chain of command and reporting to the board directly?

Long have engineers and other workers complained of clueless MBAs. Why go to bat for the pointy-haired bosses? Haven't you ever worked at an org where product leadership screwed up, leading to layoffs anyway? Or management overruled the technical concerns of the engineers? Or pushed them towards something that was simply unsound for the product and the business as a whole? Pursued strategy by fiat, where the only check against their power is the board?

People imagine tech unions will just be a rehash of Industrial Era blue collar unions, but they have the potential to be something more- a way for the rank and file to finally have the clout to push back against bad engineering decisions from poor leadership.

There is at least one example that comes to mind where a union forces corporate leadership to make business decisions that could potentially help the company stay competitive- and thus protect all of their jobs:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889

Finally, as shareholders themselves, why shouldn't employees protest against questionable business decisions? What stake do they have in a company if they are expected to unthinkingly carry out orders?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#995

Post by int_19h »

bobwaycott wrote: post #881
nelsnelson wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth mentioning that if the Senate bill version of Medicare for All becomes the law of the land, then previously employer-funded healthcare becomes one less thing for union leaders to have to negotiate with employers.

Not immediately. Universal health coverage means employers lose the ability to use health plans as a benefit and/or part of an employee’s total compensation. So unions will likely then be negotiating to see that turned into cash. Although, universal health plans also mean employees, unionized or not, win the freedom to change jobs because they’re no longer tied to jobs they hate just to remain insured. I don’t think…

Single payer specifically does this, not universal healthcare in general. You can have a universal healthcare system in which private healthcare is a thing, including employer-provided healthcare. Many countries do just that.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#996

Post by kerkeslager »

austincheney wrote: post #932
kerkeslager wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am proposing that developers pay to justify higher wages and cut through subjective hiring bullshit Why is that a problem developers need to solve? A bad hiring process hurts the company much more than developers. > The rest of your points don't make any sense. You don't need any education to be a developer. For example, I am completely self taught. I have also worked with some incredibly talented developers who…

> Why is that a problem developers need to solve? A bad hiring process hurts the company much more than developers. Its not well thought out company policies that interview and hire people. Generally its other developers insecurely biasing their decisions on subjective considerations for their personal preferences. That hurts the company and potential candidates, but this is still how software hiring works in most ca…

> > Why is that a problem developers need to solve? A bad hiring process hurts the company much more than developers.

> Its not well thought out company policies that interview and hire people. Generally its other developers insecurely biasing their decisions on subjective considerations for their personal preferences. That hurts the company and potential candidates, but this is still how software hiring works in most cases.

You're not answering my question: Why is this developers' problem? Sounds like a problem for companies, not developers. If you think this solves a problem companies have, then companies should pay for it, not developers.

> > I'll also point out that a bachelor's degree in CS is a certification

> No it isn't. A medical degree is not a medical license and a law degree isn't a law license. No education is a real estate or truck driver license, though both of those licenses demand some form of education. Hopefully the education has prepared you for both the real world and for the licensing, but clearly this is often not the case in practice, at least in software.

Okay, if your definition of a certification is that it's required for employment, then why not just require a CS bachelors for employment as a software developer? If you answer that, you have the answer for why people are against certifications.

Yes, interviews are subjective and ineffective in identifying suitable candidates, but a) I'm not sure why you think that this is a problem developers should solve rather than employers, and b) I'm not sure why you think a standardized certification would be less subjective. If anything, a standard certification is going to be much poorer at identifying candidates suitable for companies, since specific companies have specific needs.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#997

Post by brianwawok »

gamblor956 wrote: post #796
brianwawok wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union also tends to mean that you get paid for the # of years you worked your job, not how good you are. This is a good thing for the bottom 50% of workers, and a bad thing for the top 50% of workers. Does this union do anything to address that? Is pay still fully merit based?

This is completely false. Union wage agreements are based on what union members want. For blue-collar unions, this usually means seniority-based scales. For white-collar unions, this usually means experience-based scales (which differs from seniority because it's not job-specific; any job in the field counts). For talent-based unions like SAG or NFLPA, this means minimum scales with no cap on maximum potential earnin…

Do you know people in a union like SAG or the other entertainment type unions? It seems super not awesome for a lot of people. I know people working their way through the lower tiers. You often get a choice of . If you make it all the way through that dance INTO the union, it can help you coast and get a steady paycheck. And yes, it is a fact that lower tiers of people are abused in the US. But I would rather deal with that with universal healthcare, vs promoting unions to argue for better health benefits.

You are technically correct in that unions can be any agreement that the founders. Sure. However I see a union for programmers looking a lot more like a union for autoworkers than a union for actors.

What country has a successful union for computer programmers? Are the top 10% of performers better compensated than the top 10% of developers in the US? As far as I can tell, developers in the US have the best compensation of anywhere on earth. I can't imagine why I would ever want to join a programmer union.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#998

Post by brianwawok »

Apocryphon wrote: post #765
brianwawok wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union also tends to mean that you get paid for the # of years you worked your job, not how good you are. This is a good thing for the bottom 50% of workers, and a bad thing for the top 50% of workers. Does this union do anything to address that? Is pay still fully merit based?

Why do unions have to have seniority rules? Certainly next-gen unions can pursue a different model.

Unions do not like members being graded. I do not run a union, so I am not sure why that is. May be worth asking some of them.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#999

Post by Apocryphon »

brianwawok wrote: post #997
gamblor956 wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely false. Union wage agreements are based on what union members want. For blue-collar unions, this usually means seniority-based scales. For white-collar unions, this usually means experience-based scales (which differs from seniority because it's not job-specific; any job in the field counts). For talent-based unions like SAG or NFLPA, this means minimum scales with no cap on maximum potential earnin…

Do you know people in a union like SAG or the other entertainment type unions? It seems super not awesome for a lot of people. I know people working their way through the lower tiers. You often get a choice of . If you make it all the way through that dance INTO the union, it can help you coast and get a steady paycheck. And yes, it is a fact that lower tiers of people are abused in the US. But I would rather deal wi…

> However I see a union for programmers looking a lot more like a union for autoworkers than a union for actors.

Why? That's your opinion, we're talking about a hypothetical organization that hasn't been attempted in the U.S. until the OP. It's all up in the air and speculative right now, there are many ways in which a tech union might shake out.

> What country has a successful union for computer programmers?

You might as well have asked a decade ago what country has built a successful mainstream electric car, or a program that could replace taxis or hotels, or a reusable space rocket. Like these things before they were invented, a tech union would be a new innovation, a new type of entity, that will need to be evaluated on its own real-world merits in the future. Right now critics prematurely shooting down the idea are constrained by imperfect comparisons to different types of unions created in different industries in different times.

> As far as I can tell, developers in the US have the best compensation of anywhere on earth.

For the time being. Economic tumult and technological change can easily alter this reality. What goes up must come down. So one should seek to future-proof and at least consider long-term safeguards, instead of assuming the good times will always be present.

> I can't imagine why I would ever want to join a programmer union.

Have you read this discussion at all? There's been many, many motivations for why a tech union- or a guild or some other professional association that works on behalf of tech workers- should exist, and compensation is only one of them.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#1000

Post by whateveracct »

ieRei6ae wrote: post #927
miscPerson wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, plenty of misandrists and anti-White racists do show up to those meetings and join panels to push their discriminatory agenda. Why do you think we talk about the lack of women in STEM, but not the lack of men in HR, education, social work, psychology, etc? Because bigots set the agenda. Having sports programs for one sex has been ruled illegal under Title IX — but how many universities have special tuto…

> anti-White racists Please spare the alt-right dog whistle.

Sadly, that sort of thing gets boosted on HN & calling it out for what it is like you did gets your comment turned grey & flagged.
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