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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#761

Post by heavyset_go »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #674
heavyset_go wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't the same employees that are setting Uber's culture set the union culture? Company culture comes from the top.

In a union or a cooperative, the members actually have an opportunity to decide who gets to be at the top.

Ultimately, company culture is a product of what the owners and their appointees allow and incentivize. In Uber's case, its culture is directly tied to Kalanick's management.

I agree in that unions give employees leverage in management and decision making, and that a union might have provided incentives for Uber to behave differently towards its employees. But a union isn't going to change who owns the company, unless they negotiate a buyout.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#762

Post by gamblor956 »

save_ferris wrote: post #492
carapace wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Why do tech workers need a union? I don't know if a union is the answer, but tech workers aren't immune to management hi-jinks: "Apple and Google's wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees" https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

It’s not just wage-fixing, tech companies wield an absurd amount of power in other aspects of people’s lives. I was once let go due for “performance” reasons that involved major company politics behind the scenes. I’d just gotten my annual review from my boss emailed to my work email about a week before my termination, which showed stellar performance across the board. When I looked into filing for unemployment, I di…

Being let go for "performance" reasons is not "for cause" in CA. For cause means something serious that violates the employment agreement, like criminal behavior or sexual harassment.

Companies generally don't fire people "for cause" absent cause because that's the best way to guarantee a lawsuit (because as you've pointed out, it has financial repercussions like cutting off the availability of unemployment, and reputational damage to the former employee).

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#763

Post by brianwawok »

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

A union also tends to mean that you get paid for the # of years you worked your job, not how good you are.

This is a good thing for the bottom 50% of workers, and a bad thing for the top 50% of workers.

Does this union do anything to address that? Is pay still fully merit based?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#764

Post by gamblor956 »

save_ferris wrote: post #697
djsumdog wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be able to subpoena those e-mails and other documents. Depending on your municipality, there is usually a court/tribunal process just for unemployment claims, or you could get an employment lawyer. It is going to eat up some of that unemployment, but it's worth it to not let a company get away with that kind of shit.

> but it’s worth it Is it, though? I chose to focus on finding the next gig and luckily got one in a couple weeks. The emotional toll of subjecting yourself to the legal system against an entity with a team of lawyers sounds absolutely horrible.

It's worth it. If there is an actual violation, the company didn't just steal money from you. They defrauded the state labor board and the taxpayers of the state. And that's the sort of thing that government lawyers are very interested pursuing.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#765

Post by Apocryphon »

brianwawok wrote: post #763
elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

A union also tends to mean that you get paid for the # of years you worked your job, not how good you are. This is a good thing for the bottom 50% of workers, and a bad thing for the top 50% of workers. Does this union do anything to address that? Is pay still fully merit based?

Why do unions have to have seniority rules? Certainly next-gen unions can pursue a different model.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#766

Post by arrosenberg »

luckylion wrote: post #616
arrosenberg wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty pessimistic way to look at it. Without a union or being a high-skilled worker, you are 100% serving your corporate overlord. In well-run unions the leadership serves the membership, not the other way around. With a good union you are serving yourself in a far more significant way than without the union.

> In well-run unions the leadership serves the membership, not the other way around. Isn't that a bit much like "in a well-run republic, the government serves the people" etc? That's certainly true in theory ... I have no experience with US unions, but I am, thanks to a previous job, very well acquainted with most of the major unions in Germany on multiple levels. The further up you go, the more corruption you will f…

> Isn't that a bit much like "in a well-run republic, the government serves the people" etc? That's certainly true in theory...

Surely one has to prefer theoretical upside over the certainty of servitude.

> I have no experience with US unions, but I am, thanks to a previous job, very well acquainted with most of the major unions in Germany on multiple levels. The further up you go, the more corruption you will find. They are run as cross-overs between political party and corporation, with large salaries for the executives, networks deciding over promotions and mostly based on political & personal affiliation, not on merit. They tend to say "we have to see eye-to-eye with management to negotiate", which roughly translates to "we have to be paid as well as upper management".

I have no first-hand experience with German unions, so I won't comment beyond observing that in either case, the issue comes down to a lack of a meritocratic reward structure. Unions are neutral on that front, it all comes down to the laws and culture. American unions were born out of capitalist greed run amok, so they tend to be pretty antagonistic and confrontational. I get the impressions that German unions are more of a cooperative with capital to ensure work stoppages are minimized.

> Don't get me wrong, I'd probably still recommend joining a union if you're starting out today, but I wouldn't give you any of that ideological crap. It'll get you more pay, and you'll have a lawyer for any issues with your job. Do it, don't tell anyone about it (illegal or not, if you apply for a job, they will look you up and if you're known for being active in a union, they will not hire you), and keep your head down, because they can also make your life hell if you get on their bad side or insult some local boss.

I didn't think my statement was particularly ideological, and I don't personally feel an ideological bent toward unions. I wouldn't personally join one because I don't need it, but a union would benefit most of the developers I know from a practical standpoint. Getting on the bad side of the union is no different than getting on the bad side of an executive - at least with a union you have 2 centers of gravity to pull on instead of one.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#767

Post by gamblor956 »

bobbytran wrote: post #733
piva00 wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that strong unions will fight for collective negotiation of wages? Sweden has one of the strongest union system in the world and at the same time is one of the most entrepreneurial nations with high wages and lots of billionaires, salaries are lower than the US but they are still negotiated and not fixed by the union. The minimum wage for a specific job might be but apart from that I'm free to negoti…

It's very difficult to actually grow a company in a country like Sweden because of the regulations and taxes you are required to pay after a certain amount of employees.

I would rather pay employees a living wage as part of a sustainable business than deal with the hypergrowth VC bullshit that destroys entire market segments with nothing to show for it except ruined lives after the startups finally implode.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#768

Post by Aunche »

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

Those may be the stated reasons for a union, but for some reason, in tech, workers just want a union because they want to inject their political views into their company:

> But in 2018, a heated disagreement broke out between employees and management about whether to leave a project called “Always Punch Nazis” on the platform, according to reporting in Slate. When Breitbart said the project violated Kickstarter’s terms of service by inciting violence, management initially planned to remove the project, but then reversed its decision after protest from employees.

> Following the controversy, employees announced their intentions to unionize

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#770

Post by jariel »

zpallin wrote: post #473
wpietri wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's becoming my take as well. I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think…

You should contact Human Agenda and join their Mondragon Trip ( http://www.humanagenda.net/tour-the-mondragon-cooperatives/ ). Mondragon, as you probably know, is the home of the world's largest worker-coop federation's HQ and its namesake. Through Human Agenda you can get a tour of their HQ and potentially a chance to meet worker owners and see their facilities (a number of which are in the town.) You can also check…

Mondragon is an ethnocentric, nationalist organization with strong political orientations. It's not a general example of what anyone would think of as a regular cooperative.

If a small part of Vermont where 'its own country' and constantly under threat of economic annexation from the US or Canada, well, people might organize differently than they do in California.

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