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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#981
post #8
post #4

If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they'll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else's time pretending it's a real project. It's not a proper environment to put contributors in.

I think it's rather silly to have some subsystem maintainers do everything in their power to sabotage the improvement projects by subsystem and even high level maintainers in the kernel. It was a fine position to take back when introduction of Rust into the kernel was still very much a discussion point. However, the discussion is over, Rust has been accepted into the kernel. This entire struggle has been kernel devel…

> However, the discussion is over

It's not. Certainly not until Linus says it is.

> Rust has been accepted into the kernel.

As a limited experiment. This kind of drama may be an indication that the experiment has failed and should be rolled back.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#982
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't get this what so ever, is there memory allocation bugs in GC languages such as Java? Even if that is the case Rust specifically is design not to be GC. Ontop of that you csn do manual memory management if you want in Rust afaik.

Rust with manual memory management is just more cumbersome than C

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#983

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/06/30/hard_to_find_linux_ma... One of the main issues Torvalds says the kernel has is not being able to find maintainers. People don’t want to be abused while volunteering could be part of that. Another possibility is that he gets paid over a million dollars a year by an employer, who will have some concerns over legal risks, reputation, etc.

Perhaps, but if Linus would rather see the mainline kernel development dwindle than compromise his way of managing people and code, he's still well within his rights. As for his relationship with his employer — they both have the freedom to terminate it when their interests do not align anymore. I genuinely struggle to understand where all the high expectations come from. Somehow people think that an open source proj…

Do you genuinely think an employer ordering an employee "don't tell people to kill themselves" is "high expectations"?

This is tragedy of the commons stuff, everyone is sitting quietly on the commons in a shared space, respecting the other people, and you drive your modified pickup truck through the middle rolling coal and blaring dance music and jeering "if you don't like it you can always move to another city" as if toning it down a bit is unreasonable but telling people to uproot their entire lives is reasonable.

> "Somehow people think that an open source project leader is obliged to be kind and polite"

Everybody is obliged to be kind and polite[1], that's one of the foundational parts of society - saying please and thank you, 'don't stare', consider the effect of your actions on other people - is kindergarten teachings; we all live in a shared space, and politeness is the grease that smoothes all the interactions between different peoples.

In any other situation, if a person has some power, authority or influence over people who can't leave or won't leave, and they immediately turn to abusing them just because they can, we would say that was bad. If a husband abuses a wife who can't leave, if a manager abuses employees who won't quit, if a religious leader abuses devotees, if a child abuses a pet, if a teacher abuses students, if a government mistreats illegal immigrants, we (society, possibly the legal system) would object quite strongly. Why does invoking the words "open source" excuse anyone from these expectations as if 'leading an open source project' makes someone above everyone else and outside the normal expected behaviours?

It is also a thing that you can't separate "don't scream abuse at people" with whining "why do I have to be polite?" as if those are the only two options, there's quite a range of rude responses which are not abusive - saying the code sucks, saying 'I wont read all that' - and there are polite responses which are blunt and not saccharine - saying 'I have the decision making authority and do not want to do it that way.', 'nope, PR rejected, do not try again', 'I am not taking PRs of any kind, I do not want to'.

Aside from that, as mentioned, this is not just any open source - he's a paid employee, this is not him sharing his work on his own server with the scope of him being rude or abusive limited to a few people; this is a hugely important worldwide system. The Linux Foundation is funded by companies who use Linux such as Amazon and Google. They employ people who work on the Linux kernel and have to be subscribed to lkml to do their jobs. The Linux Foundation benefits from the work they do and the changes they upstream. The companies donating money have shareholders and expectations of the companies they work with and charities they donate to. And presumably they have some ability to lean on their donations to ask for favours. All this happens under US employment laws and regulations on several sides. This presenting it as a trivial "if you don't like it, leave" is a deliberate and bad-faith oversimplification. It's the race to "person who cares less wins, and I'm a cynical nihilist so I care about nothing, hah!".

[1] https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#984

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but if Linus would rather see the mainline kernel development dwindle than compromise his way of managing people and code, he's still well within his rights. As for his relationship with his employer — they both have the freedom to terminate it when their interests do not align anymore. I genuinely struggle to understand where all the high expectations come from. Somehow people think that an open source proj…

Do you genuinely think an employer ordering an employee "don't tell people to kill themselves" is "high expectations"? This is tragedy of the commons stuff, everyone is sitting quietly on the commons in a shared space, respecting the other people, and you drive your modified pickup truck through the middle rolling coal and blaring dance music and jeering "if you don't like it you can always move to another city" as i…

I'm sorry, but I just can't make any sense out of this.

> This presenting it as a trivial "if you don't like it, leave" is a deliberate and bad-faith oversimplification

This is not an oversimplification, this is a fact that you don't like and prefer to ignore. It doesn't disappear when you close your eyes though.

A grumpy person made an open source project that by chance became successful. He didn't force all these people and corporations to use it and fund it, it was a free choice on their part.

What is he supposed to do now, change his personality to please random people on the internet? Why? How do you even see this happening? Or you think grumpy people should have been prohibited from writing code in the first place?

Furthermore he does not hold anyone hostage as you try to present this. Linux is not Linux Foundation. You can use and develop Linux without funding the Linux Foundation. It's just more convenient like that but again you are free to exchange patches outside of it.

People who walk in and say "nice project you have here, now you comply or we take it away from you" don't have my sympathy.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#985
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc…

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

I think "Code of Civility" is what Dr. G was describing. Conduct presupposes civility, but acceptable online discourse has changed amongst new internet natives raised in the era of moral totalitarianism, aggression as a service, and popular outrage incubators.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? I’m a huge fan of Linus, but you have to be delusional to not find his rants abusive or disrespectful.

Not as disrespectful as calling those who don't agree with you "delusional".

Of course not.

https://github.com/corollari/linusrants

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#987

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like Dr Greg (not Greg KH) is just piling his own personal grievance on top of the drama. Saying "Jim are you listening?" makes me wonder who he's sniping at. Speaking as an actual People Manager, his ideas sound pretty shallow.

Maybe Jim Zemlin, who is the executive director of the Linux Foundation and has nothing to do with Linux.

> Jim Zemlin, who is the executive director of the Linux Foundation and has nothing to do with Linux.

That sounds... Not good. Seems like like this is exactly what's wrong with... Well, not just this, but much of the "FOSS" world. (Maybe about since "Free Software" became "Open Source"?)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#988

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://archive.is/rESxe This is a recurring pattern I see with drama in some open source communities, where people measure others using yardsticks they themselves don't live up to. People can't post stuff like this while accusing everyone in the vicinity except themselves of bad behavior. Choose one.

Yikes, at great example of how not all thoughts that pop into your head should be publicised.

Hm, good thing I'm not a Linux maintainer. 'Coz that first C in my username... (My given name is the only thing about me that has anything to do with "Christ".)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#989
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this what so ever, is there memory allocation bugs in GC languages such as Java? Even if that is the case Rust specifically is design not to be GC. Ontop of that you csn do manual memory management if you want in Rust afaik.

Rust with manual memory management is just more cumbersome than C

That's shifting the goal post. Ergonomically I don't know a single language that is both trying to make you write secure and correct code without sacrificing ergonomics.

Closest is most likely Ada.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#990
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. If a maintainer of a major subsystem has those objections, it is a good chance to try to convince them otherwise. If something is not clear, ask him to elaborate. But blackmailing with a social media c…

If you looks at the history then you will see that many different solutions have been proposed but Christoph's responses essentially boil down to 'do it somewhere else' and 'no not there', until it is basically 'not at all'. He is not in a position to make this decision, only Linus is. The patch as it stands lives outside of any sub-systems within Christoph's purview, he is simply being obstructionist out of tribalis…

> The patch as it stands lives outside of any sub-systems within Christoph's purview

Wait what? Thought I saw somwehere that he's the DMA maintainer, and wasn't this a DMA patch?

> he is simply being obstructionist out of tribalism.

Or is it the Rust people who are being intrusionist out of their tribalism? Looks at least as much like that to me.

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