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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#321

Post by alexey-salmin »

hulitu wrote: post #310
artyom wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

> In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. The way he spoke with Alan Cox was "not apropiate".

Not appropriate for what exactly?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#322

Post by steveklabnik »

hulitu wrote: post #319
Philpax wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The changes required to bring C to a Rust level of safety would make it an entirely different language, even when restricted to the kernel's domain. Also, if you're already doing codebase-specific patches to the language itself, many of the arguments around codebase portability that justify the use of C fall apart. Aside from that, there are other benefits to Rust than safety: it's better at modelling data and states…

> The changes required to bring C to a Rust level of safety cough* Cargo cough* /s You cannot have safety or security when you download your code from the internet and this code is a moving target.

The kernel does not use Cargo.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#323

Post by wiseowise »

artyom wrote: post #238
sevg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

Seriously? I’m a huge fan of Linus, but you have to be delusional to not find his rants abusive or disrespectful.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#324

Post by ToucanLoucan »

agoodusername63 wrote: post #292
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posti…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#325

Post by nomel »

rednafi wrote: post #288
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

People get old and stop caring. Linus is still doing amazing. But I agree he should have just said no to Rust and move on.

Why? Was it not worth seeing where it would go, or how many would be interested? Is it possible he believed the tides could turn that way?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#326

Post by [deleted] »

andrewstuart wrote: post #300
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

Rust is bad news for Linux. No because its Rust, but because it's a bad idea to use more than one single language across the entire code base. I also am surprised that Linus has not ended this folly. If Rust wants a Linux kernel it should make one.

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#327

Post by n144q »

ta8645 wrote: post #191
tedivm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…

[flagged]

> At least, it was exactly that environment that gave us the amazing product that has changed the world.

You need some extraordinary evidence to claim things like that.

To stretch things a bit, it's like saying, while male dominated the field of engineering in the 60s (and still do), it was exactly that kind of environment that made it possible for humans to get to the moon. Can you actually prove it? Really?

It's hard for me to imagine using git will slow down kernel development compared to sending patches in emails.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#328

Post by XorNot »

zoogeny wrote: post #180
steveklabnik wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linus could make some of this go away by committing to let the Rust builds break. Linus already did that. This is the state of things today. C code is allowed to break the Rust, and it's the Rust for Linux people's responsibility to get it working again, not the C folks.

I'm just an interloper and only going on the linked thread, but there are specific patches that missed merge windows due to Rust build breaks. The patches referenced are claimed to be exceptions but I can understand the fear. Linus is saying one thing but making exceptions in some cases. As Rust becomes more and more integrated into core Linux systems those exceptions may become more frequent and may eventually becom…

This entirely depends on the supposition that there are more new kernel developers who want to, and are able to, use Rust then C.

I don't think this is proven: what we have is a specific group of Rust developers, but they are there by virtue of that group existing. There are numerous more kernel contributors today who work in C, and since the greybeards are happy to keep up the work it's not like anyone else is going to easily step in to replace them (since it would be a coup not a handover, if they didn't actually want to step down).

An equally plausible future is some such Rust mandate happens, you drive off the existing C developers, then it turns out the Rust developers aren't actually numerous enough or committed enough (or even good enough at long term project social management) to keep the project going and it dies (or forks into CLinux or something).

Linux itself was a "hobby project" which ultimately succeeded because it did the work which needed to be done, while everyone else was still completely sure the microkernels were the way of the future.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#329

Post by n144q »

znpy wrote: post #37
AgentME wrote: post #4

If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they'll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else's time pretending it's a real project. It's not a proper environment to put contributors in.

I think the core of the issue is expecting people to agree with stuff. Linux is free software and there's really nobody stopping people from forking it and doing things the way they want. It used to happen all the time once upon a time, nowadays people seems to be afraid of doing it.

I can easily fork your project with 1k lines of code, but not Linux kernel and stay up-to-date with all the latest commits. Nobody can.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#330

Post by arp242 »

cyberax wrote: post #314
arp242 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks" He didn't say this at all. He explicitly and repeatedly said he has no problems with Rust as a language. And you can't just assert "there are no valid technical reasons". Just because you don't agree with the objections, or even think they're dumb, doesn't mean you can just dismiss them and start ascribing bad faith motives.

He literally called "Rust" a "cancer".

He literally did not. He literally explicitly said right there in the (in)famous "cancer" message that it didn't refer to Rust as a language.[1]

"And I also do not want another maintainer. If you want to make Linux impossible to maintain due to a cross-language codebase do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this cancer to core subsystems. (where this cancer explicitly is a cross-language codebase and not rust itself, just to escape the flameware brigade)."

Stop spreading this kind of misinformation.

And no, I don't think he came off very well here, but please, give it a good faith reading.[2]

[1]: https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250128092334.GA28548@lst.de/

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42977720

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