The case against masks at school • Hacker News Board

Re: The case against masks at school

#981

Post by amalcon » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

restingrobot wrote: post #972

amalcon wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have several vaccines for Omicron. They are the existing COVID vaccines. They aren't as effective as they were against prior variants, but they're still more effective than e.g. flu vaccines, which save many lives each year. Note that I don't agree with the eugenics comments, but this misinformation about the effectiveness of COVID vaccines is getting out of hand.

>but this misinformation about the effectiveness of COVID vaccines is getting out of hand. Nothing I stated is misinformation. The the current vaccines are not effective at preventing the spread of omicron. So to say that the best approach, if you are already vaccinated, is to just get virus, is not a stretch. The same can apply to any future, (weak), variants as well.

You said:

> its the same for every other infectious disease without a vaccine.

To which someone responded:

> But we have a vaccine.

To which you responded:

> Not for omicron, or the next variant, or the one after that.

That last statement is incorrect. Yes, you can still get and spread the virus if you have received the vaccine. The same is true for almost all vaccines; they do not cease to be vaccines because of this.

I do support calling out the hyperbole of other people in the thread. Accepting that everyone likely will get the virus at some point is not remotely the same thing as eugenics. It does not become OK to make dangerous misstatements, if not outright lies, in the service of doing that.

For what it's worth, a little more precision (e.g. "every other infectious disease without a sterilizing vaccine") would have served you well here.

Re: The case against masks at school

#982

Post by taylodl » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

concinds wrote: post #760

lancesells wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm vaccinated and think everyone capable of receiving the vaccine should get it but turning people away is cruel. That's science-fiction dystopia cruelty in my opinion. Now if a hospital is full and at capacity maybe there are some calculations but just turning people away is wrong.

Note I wasn't suggesting turning people away if they're unvaccinated, I think that would be dehumanizing and would set a horrible precedent. I'm just wondering why pre-programmed surgeries and screenings are being deprogrammed when a Covid hospitalization spike is expected, as opposed to keeping all previously programmed appointments, and turning new Covid patients away when you hit full capacity (regardless of vacci…

It's a really complicated issue. I've had a doctor friend explain it to me that one way to look at it is ignorance is a disease. The unvaccinated who have Covid now have two diseases they're fighting against. It's an interesting perspective.

Keeping with that perspective, those coming to the hospital with Covid that goes untreated are more likely to die in the next 30 days than those who come in with cancer that goes untreated. That's the calculus being played out. They're hoping to get through these waves and then get back to the patients who weren't facing as immediate a health threat.

What's really bothering my medical friends, and I suspect may be the source of so much burnout, is the prevalence of willful ignorance. They see it as a majority of the unvaccinated are people who should know better - that's what's making this so tough for them. They knew there would be cranks and crackpots who wouldn't get the vaccine because there always are. They weren't expecting it to be this prevalent and they certainly weren't expecting it to be politicized. The whole situation is demoralizing and causing people to reassess their life choices.

Re: The case against masks at school

#983

Post by JPKab » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:07 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #970

JPKab wrote: post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't open up more medical schools because the American Medical Association has lobbied for decades and use their accreditation authority to put a cap on the number of seats in med schools in the US. There's been virtually no change since the 1980s despite a 30% increase in the population. They are perhaps one of the most significant drags on economic growth in the history of the United States. Because of the art…

That's not correct. The actual bottleneck in training more physicians is lack of federal funding for residency slots. Every year about 5% of the students who graduate from accredited medical schools fail to get matched to a residency program and are thus unable to practice medicine. Contrary to your claim, the American Medical Association has actually been lobbying for increased residency funding for years, and even…

Why does the federal government need to fund the training of doctors? They don't fund the training of software engineers considering that universities do a pretty poor job of preparing somebody for a position at a software company. The vast majority of computer science graduates I've hired require extensive on the job training before I can trust them with anything. I've actually had to fire several.

If you're talking about clinics catering to poor populations. Why can't they use their Medicare money?

I'm sorry, I don't trust anything from the AMA because they are a lobbying organization. Why don't I just start sending links to the American Petroleum Institute while we're at it?

Re: The case against masks at school

#984

Post by siquick » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:20 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

siquick wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve found N95 masks to be far more breathable than the normal paper masks, and definitely more breathable than cloth masks.

do you mean N95 masks with a valve? If so I agree, but the ones without a valve are way more difficult to breath in, that is kind of the point.

I’ve only used non-valve N95s

Re: The case against masks at school

#985

Post by nradov » Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:17 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #983

nradov wrote: post #970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct. The actual bottleneck in training more physicians is lack of federal funding for residency slots. Every year about 5% of the students who graduate from accredited medical schools fail to get matched to a residency program and are thus unable to practice medicine. Contrary to your claim, the American Medical Association has actually been lobbying for increased residency funding for years, and even…

Why does the federal government need to fund the training of doctors? They don't fund the training of software engineers considering that universities do a pretty poor job of preparing somebody for a position at a software company. The vast majority of computer science graduates I've hired require extensive on the job training before I can trust them with anything. I've actually had to fire several. If you're talking…

The federal government doesn't necessarily need to fund the residency training of doctors, but if we want more doctors then that's the fastest way to get them. Most teaching hospitals are non-profits so if they had to self fund residency programs then they would have to raise prices to patients. Hospitals barely break even (or less) on many Medicare service fees so those don't provide much margin to fund residency programs. That is the reality of our situation regardless of whether you trust the AMA.

Yes the American Petroleum Institute is a good source of information on some topics. They're certainly biased and I disagree with some of their conclusions, but they publish some accurate data and it's worth understanding their perspective.

Re: The case against masks at school

#986

Post by joshuamorton » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 12:06 AM UTC

ya_throw wrote: post #975

joshuamorton wrote: post #962

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next line is "deaths with covid on the death certificate", which is different and is actually a higher number and the more important number, as it deals with people who died of covid induced pneumonia after a multi-week stay in the ICU, but not people who by chance had a heart attack after contracting a mild case.

Now there's where we get into interesting territory. The UK significantly relaxed regulations around March 2020, and basically made it very easy to put "Covid" on death certificates. The requirement for a coroner's report in the case of a novel disease (ie, Covid) was also dropped, as well as the requirement to do a Covid test (or even certify the death in person). [1] As a result, it will never be possible to know h…

So can you explain something to me:

We know how many people die of non-covid viral induced pneumonia in a normal year (and in a bad year). Most of it is caused by the flu. We also know that covid policies have demonstrably reduced flu rates to some of the lowest ever over the past few years.

So what other cause of viral induced pneumonia do you suppose is the one killing everyone?

Re: The case against masks at school

#987

Post by another_story » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 12:55 AM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #942

another_story wrote: post #903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't have anything to do with case count and lack of spread, though.

Obesity increases the risk of illness which contributes to spread.

Citation needed that obesity promotes spread. It may increase symptoms, but places like India have millions of cases, many likely undocumented, and low levels of obesity.

Re: The case against masks at school

#988

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:05 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #822

hcurtiss wrote: post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange part to me is that usually on policy issues there’s this band of reasonable behavior and people disagree on which end of that band we should fall, but if you’re honest you can understand the other side’s perspective. On COVID in Oregon, it’s the first time in my life I’ve felt like I’m looking at a completely different world than others. I’m just flabbergasted by the policy calls driven by COVID hysteria.…

So what I'm about to write here is I want to emphasize just groaning and complaining from my brother. He recently moved just over the line to one of those suburbs of Portland in Washington State. He told me he was fed up with Oregon and although he doesn't like the Pacific Northwest in general, he is divorced and needs to be near his ex-wife since she has custody of the kids. His view of Oregon is that it's filled wi…

[deleted]

Re: The case against masks at school

#989

Post by landemva » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:16 AM UTC

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #454

iso1631 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> restaurant employees generally need to wash their hands after going to the bathroom I struggle to grasp a society where that has to be mandated

>I struggle to grasp a society where that has to be mandated You're probably unaware of the high prevalence of fecal bacteria on public surfaces, then. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16134485/ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/29/mcdonalds-touchscreen-kiosks... "A study by U.K. newspaper Metro found gut and fecal bacteria on touchscreens in all of the chain’s restaurants it surveyed. It took samples from the screens in e…

After the restaurant waiter or cook is done texting and then flushes the toilet, they wash their hands. Do they wash their phone? Or do they put phone in pocket, go back to kitchen, and proceed to finger the phone for the next hour and contaminate everything while playing their role wearing a mask?

Re: The case against masks at school

#990

Post by jrnichols » Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #908

hcurtiss wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but masks aren't doing much to prevent that. My kids go to an Oregon elementary school that requires full time masking and I can't think of a single kid who hasn't had it. COVID has run rampant through Oregon schools. I don't care what the lab studies show. Masks don't do shit in schools. The elderly and vulnerable need to get vaccinated, or be handled in a tent in the hospital parking lot. Stop punishing kids.…

> I don't care what the lab studies show. Masks don't do shit in schools. According to the article, studies have said very little in a way that controls for variables. There haven't been great studies showing their effectiveness. The Bangladesh one said surgical masks were "modestly effective." Not that it matters. Omicron is so contagious masks are well past their usefulness.

> The Bangladesh one said surgical masks were "modestly effective."

And then the raw data came out and there was a difference of maybe 20 cases.

The gold standard is an RCT, and it failed to show any benefit to masks in general.

Masks work great on mannequins or hamsters but they are essentially useless as a public health measure. We learned this in 1912. I am astonished that so many people still cling to them and claim "masks work" when we have overwhelming data that as a non-pharmaceutical intervention, they really don't. unless 100% of the people wear an N95 24/7.

The masks were well past their usefulness in 2019.