NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#981

Post by Smithalicious » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am very worried about setting a precedent for mandating a medical procedure like this. Times like these are when it's both the hardest and the most important to stand by principles like that.

It's very easy to give up power to government and very hard to claw it back, and I'm of the opinion that it's not worth giving up norms like this in the long term, even if I agree that in the short term this would be good. I feel similar about e.g. free speech and privacy.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#982

Post by forgotmypw17 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #718

mrfusion wrote: post #230

A bit off topic but you know what’s really jarring for me? For the past ten years I’ve agreed with the majority on hacker news on almost every issue. Software patents, voting rights, who knows what else. Everyone seemed to just find the right answer and it made sense. Then all of a sudden I’m in tiny minority because I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies. It really feels like a t…

> Then all of a sudden I’m in tiny minority because I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies. It's just being selective, because you had to be vaccinated to go to school and/or college. And ain't nobody alive today that can choose to not ingest microplastics, PFAs, pesticides, many can't avoid lead in their drinking water, and none of us can avoid air pollution. And COVID for that m…

>And ain't nobody alive today that can choose to not ingest microplastics, PFAs, pesticides, many can't avoid lead in their drinking water, and none of us can avoid air pollution.

If it is important to you, you can find ways to avoid those. It is just not a priority for many people, because their own health is secondary to something else.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#983

Post by Zpalmtree » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #184

gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

I'm sorry but the whole "let people make their own decisions" is BS. Making epidemiological decisions isn't something that most people are qualified to do. I have seen the takes from random people and 99% of them are abject garbage.

It's a good thing you know what the right takes are, though.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#984

Post by zzzeek » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #706

zzzeek wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your "poor and minority populations" argument strikes me as disingenuous bad faith; if there are poor and minority populations who dont want to be vaccinated, they will be safer by not going into crowded spaces as well. but above all, some of us have children under 12. we'd like them to be safe. we have relatives who have weakened immune systems, who are in great danger even though they are fully vaccinated. These ar…

Coercing poor & minority populations into bending to the will of the powerful, and saying it's for their own good has a long and tragic history. I am not sure whether your argument is in bad faith, but it does seem willfully ignorant of history.

Try again, the vaccine saves lives, and in that sense is not comparable to past injustices. It is of course comparable in that it's completely understandable that there is mistrust, but prohibiting people who don't want to be vaxxed from going into public spaces and endangering themselves and others is still a life saving policy. It's not "for their own good" , it's for the good of everyone.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#985

Post by twinge » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

gatgeagent wrote: post #650

RaketenStadt wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and done: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home > then let people make their own decisions about what to do As we see, they go to crowded places, unvaccinated, and spread the virus. I think that's irresponsible. Is that "ludicrous moralization and judgement?"

To be fair, vaccinated people also spread the virus.

Yes, however, vaccinated people are much less likely to catch the virus.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#986

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

msie wrote: post #8

thsbg wrote: post #4

It is well past time for a few brave Italian-Americans to go full Khashoggi on DeBlasio, Cuomo and their nazi sympathizers.

Words coming from an spoiled child who knows nothing about real tyranny. Take a look at other countries where people are truly oppressed.

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#987

Post by xtracto » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #573

throwaway842384 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now let's do obesity. From the CDC [1]: > From 1999–2000 through 2017 –2018, US obesity prevalence increased from 30.5% to 42.4%. During the same time, the prevalence of severe obesity increased from 4.7% to 9.2%. > Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. These are among the leading causes of preventable, premature death. > The estimated annual medical co…

They are doing that very same thing with sugar taxes in other countries. The USA is not the world and my argument really is focused on countries with free healthcare.

Exactly! Here in Mexico the government implemented sugar taxes and "warning labels" [1] for unhealthy food. I think any sort of "government mandated" approach doesn't work for the USA. I think in the US a better response would be obtained by "credit tokens", tax deductions or some other money related incentive, given that the US is more capitalist.

The interesting issue is how to operationalize such type of incentives program. (i.e. Are you COVID19 vaccinated? we will give you a 5% discount in your taxes next year. You get a unique "discount coupon code" after getting your 2nd shot.)

[1] ( https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/new-warning-labels-now-requ...)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#988

Post by criticaltinker » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #452

NonContro wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring that a significant portion of #2 have already got resistance via infection. There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated, apart from padding out the pockets of Big Pharma. With the scale of vaccinations that we already have, COVID is firmly in the realm of influenza in terms of potential future deathtoll. In fact, for much of this year the UK had higher influenza deaths than COVID d…

>There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated False, the vaccine is more effective than antibodies from a previous infection. It's not a huge difference, but it is absolutely statistically significant.

> the vaccine is more effective than antibodies from a previous infection

Unless you can cite at least one peer-reviewed primary source, then we must regard your claims as purely uninformed opinion.

And to further counter your claims, here is evidence that naturally acquired immunity is equally as effective as vaccination [1].

Quote from [1]:

- "The cumulative incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection remained almost zero among previously infected unvaccinated subjects, previously infected subjects who were vaccinated, and previously uninfected subjects who were vaccinated"

[1] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#989

Post by criticaltinker » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

Marsymars wrote: post #479

NonContro wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7... Seroprevalence has been measured at 74% for Ultra-Orthodox Jewish populations in the UK. Its not a surprise that ethnic and religious minorities are anti-vaxx - many of them already had COVID. I'm anti-mandatory vaccinations for the same reason, as a COVID survivor. All the evidence is showing that this natural immunity is superior to vaccines, but I'm t…

> All the evidence is showing that this natural immunity is superior to vaccines Does it? The evidence I've seen indicates that it's robust, but not necessarily superior to vaccines.

I concur, the available evidence indicates that naturally acquired immunity works at least as well as vaccination [1][2].

There are biological reasons & theories why naturally acquired immunity may be more robust to variants (immune system learns to target a variety of markers/proteins of the virus, compared to the highly targeted immune response to the spike protein based mRNA vaccines). However to my knowledge there is no conclusive evidence of this yet in the literature on SARS-CoV-2.

[1] SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf

[2] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#990

Post by criticaltinker » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

I agree that the vaccines pose very little risk to a given individual, even though the possibility of long-term effects have yet to be ruled-out in the scientific literature.

But there are selective pressures & second order effects to consider regarding mass vaccination using the current mRNA vaccines which induce an immune response that is highly targeted towards the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein [1][2].

Combined with the evidence that people who have naturally acquired immunity are protected equally as well as vaccinated individuals [3][4], and that combinations of existing medicines have proven effective in reducing hospitalization and death [5] - don't you think that a strategy focused on vaccinating only the most vulnerable populations across the world would be more rational?

[1] Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/

[2] SARS-CoV-2 immune evasion by the B.1.427/B.1.429 variant of concern https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/06/30/scie...

[3] SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf

[4] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

[5] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...