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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#971

Post by devilshaircut »

DanBC wrote: post #864
devilshaircut wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect women like youself so I will reply in the same way I would reply to any male poster on this forum. What reality do you live in? Do you honestly think it is only prepubescent teens who make jokes involving sex and reproductive organs? Do you further deny that such jokes can actually be funny? I'm not going to debate what is work appropriate. But I think you grossly mischaracterize the nature of people and hu…

> Do you further deny that such jokes can actually be funny? I know lots of jokes about Jews or homosexuals or mad people that are very funny. I'd never tell those jokes at work, or at a conference, or in the presence of anyone who wasn't a very close friend.

"I'm not going to debate what is work appropriate."

As pointed out by a previous poster, I would appreciate it you took the time to understand that this was not the crux of what I was saying. Work appropriateness aside, the idea that only juveniles could possibly enjoy such a joke is ... laughable.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#973

Post by devilshaircut »

katbyte wrote: post #806
mwetzler wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised by the "eeew" attached to being a woman in tech. Is there really that much stigma with saying "I am a woman"? I get that we all just want to be technologists and not "female technologists" but it's a red flag that people use this kind of mitigating speech when sharing their views. It's unfair to assume Adria is "sheltered". In fact she has dealt with a great deal more than most of us, from domestic abus…

your twisting our words, its not being women in tech that's eeww, its the phrase "women in tech". it sounds so... i dunno, something that i can't put my finger on. I'm a women. I'm in tech. they are two separate things. i see no need to explicitly point out that i am a "women in tech" except when silly things like this happen and i have to. I wouldn't judge her as sheltered, i know people who have gone through some h…

I understand why you, as a woman, would hate the phrase "women in tech". It definitely has a subtext that indicates being a woman in tech is somehow a unique situation - when in reality it should be the standard. Many of my female peers also feel the same way - that they don't want to be talked about in a specific lingo - and simply want to be recognized on their personal merits, which may or may not include overcoming gender inequality. It is absolutely true that the tech industry and American industry at large are sexist and discriminatory. It is also absolutely true that cases of poor judgement like this work against this real problem of sexism in the workplace.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#974

Post by fusiongyro »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #828
fusiongyro wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside the current situation. Surely you're not leaving your career because last week somebody indirectly caused some poor schmuck to get fired for being a goober at a conference you didn't even attend. Your complaints only make sense if you perceive the situational sum total of the sexism or plain offensiveness as being more similar to this event, rather than seeing this event as an anomaly. But this situat…

> Surely you're not leaving your career because last week somebody indirectly caused some poor schmuck to get fired for being a goober at a conference you didn't even attend. I mean, if I were considering it with 30 units of determination and after this incident I'm considering it with 30.15 units of determination, it's certainly on the road. It wouldn't be the entire catalyst, but it's another let-down in a long lin…

I hope you continue to participate here on HN even if you do change careers. I like your style and I think our differences are mostly a matter of degree.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#975

Post by devilshaircut »

wpietri wrote: post #786
devilshaircut wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it was you who simply did not think about the impact of your words when you compared the situation to that of 2 gay men discussing "virgin asshole". I think you need a moment of introspection on your own commentary.

I did think about it. I have thought about it since, and will think about it tomorrow. I may have gotten it wrong. But to be clear, as I have written circa 15 times at this point, I was not comparing the situations. I understand why people might think that, but I didn't say it. I apologize for not being explicit about that, as it has caused a great deal of distraction from my actual point.

It should be clear from the reaction here on HN that your comments were widely regarded as heteronormative at best.

I think in fact that people understood you were trying to "invoke a feeling of sexual threat" and that you did this by making blatantly homophobic remarks.

I also think you should realize that even if it was not your intent to analogize, there is still an inherent comparison being made between the two situations. If they are not at all comparable, then Adria Richards must be examined according to the circumstances outlined in this thread. It appears to be the consensus among both male and female posters (including yourself) that it is unlikely that the situation could have made her feel sexually threatened. That being the case, you are simply defending the fact that she could have. This is irrelevant. Is it fair for me to feel threatened by you because you made a homophobic remark which, unlike the comments made in the presence of Ms. Richards, was actually perceived by the community to be reprehensible? Frankly, no - and I think it is a failure on your part to evaluate her situation critically rather than defending people's ability to be offended by anything they deem offensive.

EDIT: Typo.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#976

Post by praptak »

largesse wrote: post #285

In fact, the next day she made a phallus joke herself ( http://imgur.com/7XGY8wB ). This suggests that her motivations may be questionable. When you read her blog, you notice that she felt that she was taking a stand for other women and for girls who may want to enter the industry. In a way, this is not offense, it is meta-offense. She wasn't offended as much as she was thinking about the effect of the men's actions…

Scott Adams once wrote about this side of his Dilbert series: "It seems I don't offend people. I offend other people."

(Quoted from memory. He was speaking about the letters he got about how his jokes could offend a group of people to which the senders did not belong.)

Re: The PyCon Incident

#977

Post by [deleted] »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #962
jessedhillon wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major factor you have to always consider when reading HN comments on stories like this -- and I'm not even kidding here -- is that a large percentage of the HN population has no idea how to convince women to have sex with them. I mean, among online forums, I would place good money that HN's readership has one of the highest ratios of adult virgins (non-elective, i.e. not by choice) Why do I think this? Because I've…

"for making gross, wildly inappropriate jokes within earshot of other attendees" lol try being in any other industry and going to conferences. Plus try basing your argument on what actually happened. What you wrote above seems completely disconnected from reality.

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#978

Post by mistercow »

psionski wrote: post #964
mistercow wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to say anything, and the people who run the conference are free to ask you to leave.

If you're at my private property , am I free to kill you? It's the same thing, it just falls under another paragraph of the constitution (in most countries; America has exceptions where you are indeed free to do this, but this is another topic). Let's forget the law for a second; by group opinion, do they have the moral right to do this?

I'm squeamish about this "moral rights" concept which seems at odds with my general view of morality, but I'll run with it assuming a sort of vague "is this fair?" definition.

>If you're at my private property, am I free to kill you? It's the same thing

No, it's not even close to the same thing. I have the right to ask you to leave, regardless of whether you're on my private property. The difference is that if you're on my property, my request actually carries weight. Your being on my private property is a privilege that I can extend to you and later revoke. I cannot control what you say, but I can make your welcome at my property conditional upon what you say. And in general, you do not have a "moral right" to trespass[1].

I do not have the right to kill you, regardless of whether you're on my private property. They are not comparable ideas.

And yes, I think that in terms of fairness, a property owner generally has the right to ask anyone on her property to leave for just about any reason or no reason[2]. If you come to my house and start making dick jokes that I find distasteful, there is absolutely nothing wrong with me asking you to cut it out or leave. But I don't have the right to kill you.

[1] There are exceptions, of course, which is why I dislike talking about general moral rights. I'm sure you can craft some clever thought experiment that will trip up this general rule, which is one of the reasons I consider myself a utilitarian.

[2] see above

Re: The PyCon Incident

#979

Post by mistercow »

marshray wrote: post #648
mistercow wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's keep the threads of argument separate here. On the one hand, we have the question of whether or not that joke was acceptable in that situation, and in the ancestor comment, danilocampos was arguing that it was not. I tend to agree. Then there is the separate question of whether publicly shaming the person as Richards did was an acceptable response. I certainly do not think it was. But it's a separate issue.

You don't believe in "proportionate response"? The degree of the reaction is completely separate from the degree of the offense? Consider Oritz vs. Swartz.

I don't understand why you think I don't believe in proportionate response, based on my previous comment. The reaction by Richards was not an official reaction by the organizers of PyCon.

If a teenager shoplifts a stereo from a store, and a vigilante witnesses it and shoots him in the head, I think we can all still agree that the teenager was in the wrong. The fact that the vigilante was even more in the wrong doesn't change that.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#980

Post by catweasel »

This whole thing is elevator gate all over again. Feminists heading into "male dominated spaces" with the intent of shaming men over whatever minor transgression they can find. The foulest mouth in my workplace is a woman, a dongle joke would be a cake walk for her. The day I see a feminist publicly shaming a woman in a context like this is the day I'd take feminists seriously.
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