U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#971

Post by dghughes » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

ricardo81 wrote: post #815

Klinky wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?

>sweep it under the carpet As a European (Scot) who lived in Canada with my partner (Ojibwe) it became obvious how ignorant I was of the past wrt all Native American tribes and the indoctrination they were subjected to. I'd mentioned to her that during this BLM movement that the African-American story is seemingly world-known but the Native American story less so. I believe their time will come when there is a greate…

A large part of the stress came from residential schools. Children were taken from their parents to be "raised right" by the government.

There is a big debate here in Canada about Canada's founding father John A MacDonald because he approved residential schools. It would be like a debate over George Washington in the US should he be on money, statues erected and so on.

Another topic is missing women in indigenous communities. Often murdered by a partner or stranger or simply gone missing without any known reason.

It's interesting to see how little talk there is in the US over rights of First Nations (or "Native American") people. It's a daily discussion here in Canada going on for years.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#972

Post by dr_dshiv » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

beenBoutIT wrote: post #556

rudolph9 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think use of regulated drugs is legal during a religious service https://www.pewforum.org/2006/02/21/supreme-court-rules-that... And, again I think, reservations are exempt from state laws/taxes and to certain extent able to make/enforce their own laws/taxes but they still need to follow federal laws.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

What do you think about the right to "Cognitive Liberty?" Freedom of thought, specifically made legal.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#973

Post by landryraccoon » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

ponker wrote: post #837

kelnos wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, but that's just a fact of legislation. There are no "promises"; there are just laws that are easy or hard to change. If we were to amend the constitution to set aside land for native peoples, then that's probably the closest we can get to a promise, as that's probably the hardest kind of law to change -- but it's still not a promise, because it can be changed. Sure, Congressional legislation could take awa…

The Russian Duma could revoke the sale of Alaska to the United States and declare that they still own it. What stops them from doing so? The fact that the US military would stop them from trying to repossess the land. The "promise" to the Creek isn't worth the paper it's written on because they don't have enough military might to enforce the terms of the agreement. The US operates with them as it does with every one…

> The "promise" to the Creek isn't worth the paper it's written on because they don't have enough military might to enforce the terms of the agreement.

This is patently false, because the Supreme Court has ruled that the promise is enforceable.

> The US operates with them as it does with every one else, on the principle of "might makes right."

This is also completely false. Does the military answer to the President of the US because "might makes right"? Can Trump overpower any enlisted man in the military with a gun? The military obeys the Constitution because they swore an oath to do so, not because the generals have literal guns to their heads.

Culture and rule of law matter. The statement "might makes right" is a gross oversimplification that doesn't reflect our reality at all.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#974

Post by giantg2 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #914

giantg2 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would if I believed in the system. The system has become an oligarchy where the ruling class is not subject to rule of law. The system ignores blatant violation of law by making frivolous excuses. For example, how can we allow people to wait years for a trial when the constitution guarantees the right to a speedy trial?

The system is the people. It only exists because people say they can't be bothered. It's easier to convince yourself it won't work because the the alternative is trying, and that takes effort. But that indifference permits the system to continue, from the bottom up, allows it to grow cancerous and metastasize. The world you allow to happen us the world you get. The blame falls on you this time. You get what you deser…

It falls on the collective. I do my part - I vote, write my representatives, attend protests/counter-protests. The system will not change because it does not work the way it is supposed to work. Your statement saying that the system is the people is no longer true.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#975

Post by icelancer » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #934

icelancer wrote: post #845

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what Justice Thomas has been doing for a long time now (to a fault), and Gorsuch has also taken up: Congress, do your job rather than make the judicial branch perform extralegal bench activism.

Sure in theory Thomas is doing that, but it feels a lot like cosplay when such a resolution would go against his general views on power in general (see this case). People might have their legal doctrines, but it’s rarely as clearcut as you lay out and all the justices can only at most be “problematic faves”

I agree on Thomas, hence the "to a fault" part in parens.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#976

Post by objectivetruth » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

sam36 wrote: post #804

Klinky wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?

>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees fr…

I'm not replying to Sam36 here, but to anyone who read this post: please don't read Sam36's implication that Muslims are to blame for US-style chattel slavery (and the ensuing 400 years of oppression) and blithely believe it to be true.

In fact, reading pretty much any scholarly treatment of US slavery (outside of the "Lost Cause" school of thought) should give you an idea of the unfathomable scope of the millions of lives ruined over centuries. It's kind of sickening to see that glossed over as "tried to treat these people as some kind of property" in a hurry to make a point about the current controversy about removing monuments to treason.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#977

Post by supernova87a » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #863

supernova87a wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source of the possession being law is understandable. I guess what is bonkers or could use some (historical?) explanation is why real property is given an allowance to be taken through use by others, when the ownership of the land is recorded (though probably unmarked physically). To some, extending that logic might say, I have a right to take this bike because it's just sitting in front of a house unused. Is it…

> I guess what is bonkers or could use some (historical?) explanation is why real property is given an allowance to be taken through use by others, when the ownership of the land is recorded AFAIU, title recordation is a relatively recent thing. And the logic of adverse possession, which I think is a vestige of early statutes of limitations (retained out of principle or ad hoc, I dunno), mirrors the logic of later eq…

Well, it is definitely true that active in-person sitting on a property could be beneficial to those who have more time than lawyers.

Although in a sense this has ceased to matter anyway because any prudent property owner puts up fences around a property to avoid this possibility. At least where this issue is known.

I can see it going both ways. In some poor countries, the protection of the title is the greatest help to the disadvantaged -- to know that no one just by strength of goons or money can take that away. And then in other countries, the poor get to (once in a while) benefit from sitting on land that went unused and eventually having it become theirs.

In the US, everything is so paperworked and documented, that it simply seems strange that this possibility exists.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#978

Post by dependenttypes » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #871

berryjerry wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your use of "we" interesting because you clearly identify as part of the group that committed those acts hundreds of years ago. How long should a child be responsible for the crimes of their fathers? As an example, assume your father killed someone and stole $1000 dollars from them. You never knew about this didn't choose for him to do this but now someone is coming after you saying you must pay them $1000. Yo…

This analogy falls apart rather quickly when you recognize that the north american indigenous population still suffers greatly under legal systems built on the treaties that weren't even honored while the descendants of those who perpetrated great crimes against them collectively constitute the greatest mass of wealth in the history of the world while also pretending to have done nothing wrong. Re-do your analogy but…

Would you support the return of Armenians and Greeks to Turkey along with their historical land being given to them?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#979

Post by sam36 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

ivalm wrote: post #879

sam36 wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees fr…

Somehow in all of this you forgot the word genocide. Oh wait...

Debatable on whether "genocide" is the correct term. But sure, use it if you want.

"Genocide: The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group."

But I don't think that the giving of land (no matter how terrible the land is) for a group to live on truly counts as "attempted extermination".

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#980

Post by etrautmann » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #381

ISL wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in effect it is abdicating, in reality, Congress is spinlocked by indecision. There are deep divides between the branches of the electorate that have brought the representatives to office, as the United States faces a number of divisive issues. Those divides, and a preference for combat over compromise, leave us deadlocked. The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement. When Co…

Political parties have very intentionally created the deep divides in the electorate. It's not something that just happened, it was something that was made to occur for the benefit of the politicians. So I'm still putting the blame right on them.

Sure, but it would be more useful to attempt to understand why the system incentivized politicians this way. If everyone that engages with a system can be blamed for doing something wrong, then the system needs to be rethought.

Concretely, I think we should prioritize campaign finance reform and lobbying. It's only a start, but a potentially important one.