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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#961

Post by lenkite »

freeflight wrote: post #766
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BLM and Antifa activists aren't even members of a real organization Aren’t there “real” BLM organizations? Aren’t there “real” antifa groups?

The meaning of that is that there is no central authority nor uniformity for antifa or BLM groups. Everybody can start their own antifa group because all that takes is opposing fascism, that's the only unifying factor there. It's the same with BLM: It's not some kind of ideology with international governing institutions, it's a call to a cause very much like antifa. It's simply opposition to fascism/police violence w…

BLM has a political action committee.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/09/black-lives-matter-...

https://www.blmripac.com/

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#962

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #505
enraged_camel wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the argument you're trying to make?

I’m trying to figure out if anyone actually want to heal societal schisms? And the measure of that is what folks are willing to compromise on?

What do you think we should compromise on? (Asking because curious, and from the long thread that followed this it seemed like you'd actually have an opinion).

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#963

Post by heimatau »

rualca wrote: post #844
heimatau wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free expression is chaotic. The founding fathers(FF) knew this. The FF created a system of government that acts as a society consciousness. Allowing for passion (the House) but having frontal lobe mechanisms (the Senate guards against the mob mentality). The recent insurrection happened specifically because of the laziness/apathy/intentional (take your pick, I'm certain one is true) of the Congress. It was their jo…

> BLM/Qanon are equally screwed up. Can you please elaborate how a movement against police brutality and racism is in any way comparable with a group that supports a conspiracy theory regarding a cabal of satanic-worshiping cannibals?

> Can you please elaborate how a movement

American society tends to not like riots. 'Moral purity' doesn't justify physical wrath and destruction [1]. The collective society tends to benefit with using our Republic government as an instrument of recourse/change.

Using a small microcosm to judge any movement is a psyop by someone trying to reduce your critical thinking skills. Please figure out how to understand the grievances of 'the other side' because it's blinding you to a destructive discourse environment. Dare I say 80% of Americans would actually enjoy many 'other' people, if they were open and less hostile that mutes any chance to fixing mutually agreed upon problems.

[1] - I understand I'm opening myself to many historical counter arguments. But please understand that today isn't the 1850s. Nor the 1960s...etc.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#964

Post by mistermann »

dang wrote: post #830
mistermann wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legitimately good description of an arguably plausible (but still plausible!) scenario. But I must note that democracy is not lost in this scenario...unless you'd like to explain: > At this point in time there is no longer a democracy in the US. If we were to attach a debugger and step through the code, what state (variables and their values) would represent a valid scenario of democracy no longer existing…

It looks like you've been using this site primarily for political battle. That's not what HN is for, and it destroys what it is for, so we ban accounts that do it (regardless of their politics). Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stop doing this.

From your comment (on a different story):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843947

> All: I know this is a little late, but those of you posting ideological flamewar comments to this thread are breaking the site guidelines. We're trying to avoid hellfire here, and we're banning accounts that feed it. Please don't feed it.

> HN is not for all types of discussion. It is specifically for curious conversation. Here's a test you can apply: curiosity is equally open to what's true, false, or interesting about anything. If your position is that your side is right about everything while the opposing side is wrong about everything, you have left the spectrum of curiosity gratification and are functioning in the spectrum of political battle. Those do not overlap.

My ongoing issue, the "axe I grind", the "dead horse I beat" (refer to my history), is this very thing: the constant and obvious degradation of the quality of discourse on HN when it comes to Culture War topics. Most specifically: the homogeneous culture of refusal to even consider what is actually true. Not only is there little interest in what is true, but the very notion seems to be considered highly inappropriate for discussion, and anyone who dares mention it is considered an immoral heretic.

This trait has been sweeping through Western culture for years, if not decades - like a virus of the mind. HN was an outlier for quite some time, but as you know the infection has spread to here, and is flourishing.

From my perspective, there are at least two noteworthy issues in play:

1. The orderliness of HN forums.

2. The orderliness of the USA, and in turn the entire planet.

I imagine you may be less concerned about #2 than I am, but I happen to subscribe to the theory that "with great power, comes great responsibility". What if there was an approach that could plausibly "solve" (to a worthwhile degree) #1, and possibly also contribute to the solving of #2?

And if no one does anything different, where is the world going to be 5, 10, 20 years from now? Where would the world be today if it wasn't for the actions of a few key individuals at key points in history?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#965

Post by tw04 »

Karunamon wrote: post #959
tw04 wrote: post #956

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a lie by omission. He "called for violence" against people who attempted to physically disrupt his rallies, and I would go so far as to call the "violence" that ensued in all of those cases (forcible removal from the venue) justified. You keep moving the goal posts to try to justify abhorrent behavior. First he didn't call for violence, until I provided proof he did. Then the violence was justified because "…

>First he didn't call for violence, until I provided proof he did. Then the violence was justified because "they rushed the stage" - which they didn't. Now it's OK to advocate assault because someone is peacefully protesting? You are outright lying about what I said. I said that the "violence" called for in the article linked wasn't any more than kicking disruptors out of a private event with force (something justifi…

>You are outright lying about what I said. I said that the "violence" called for in the article linked wasn't any more than kicking disruptors out of a private event with force (something justified in that case), and the exact words I used were IN ONE CASE regarding the stage-rushing incident. It's up thread for all to see.

You edited your post after being called out, and that's now your scapegoat.

It is literally never justified for a politician to ask his supporters to physically assault a peaceful protestor. Full stop. You can squirm, gyrate, and try to justify it, but it's not OK.

> I stand by my original point that the original march was legitimate, and that Trump told the crowd to go home.

You can stand by whatever you want. Trump released a pre-recorded video that "we love you, but go home" - 6 HOURS after the Capitol was stormed. HOURS. At that point it didn't matter, reinforcements had arrived and the building was already cleared. Furthermore, telling violent insurrectionists you "love them"??? Really?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#966

Post by Karunamon »

tw04 wrote: post #965
Karunamon wrote: post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First he didn't call for violence, until I provided proof he did. Then the violence was justified because "they rushed the stage" - which they didn't. Now it's OK to advocate assault because someone is peacefully protesting? You are outright lying about what I said. I said that the "violence" called for in the article linked wasn't any more than kicking disruptors out of a private event with force (something justifi…

>You are outright lying about what I said. I said that the "violence" called for in the article linked wasn't any more than kicking disruptors out of a private event with force (something justified in that case), and the exact words I used were IN ONE CASE regarding the stage-rushing incident. It's up thread for all to see. You edited your post after being called out, and that's now your scapegoat. It is literally ne…

>You edited your post after being called out, and that's now your scapegoat.

Again you lie, because HN won't let you edit a post more than 2 hours old. Those words were there when the post you reply to was originally made. Stop lying.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#967

Post by neogodless »

ddxxdd wrote: post #683
vharuck wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you realize that numerous times throughout history people have successfully killed the actual president and it didn't end democracy? I'm no historian, so was there ever a time the killing was instigated by a sitting politician who then was not punished? (Yes, the Senate has yet to decide, but chances are they won't vote for removal or banning from office). Because politicians trying to have their political oppone…

The president's full speech before the protest is here: https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-tr... Can you point to a place where he specifically encouraged trespassing or violence in a way that is more egregious than the ways in which various Congresspeople encouraged violence in Kenosha or Minneapolis?

I do not believe anyone has claimed that a single speech inspired insurrection. I do believe lots of people believe that messages over time led citizens to believe their gun rights, free speech rights and voting rights were threatened, and that they would need to fight to keep them.

https://www.justsecurity.org/74138/incitement-timeline-year-...

https://www.brandeis.edu/now/2021/january/trump-language-cap...

That being said, the speech itself certainly didn't help.

> they rigged an election.

> They rigged it like they’ve never rigged an election before.

> All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats

> You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.

> We will not take it any more

> We will not let them silence your voices.

> Although with this administration, if this happens, it could happen. You’ll see some really bad things happen. They’ll knock out Lincoln too, by the way.

> we’re going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed

> some of these guys. They’re out there fighting the House. Guys are fighting, but it’s incredible

> Democrats attempted the most brazen and outrageous election theft. There’s never been anything like this.

> We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

> We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing

> Our country has been under siege for a long time

> You will have an illegitimate president, that’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen.

Probably a waste of my effort, but it's quite disingenuous to claim that not saying the word "trespass" in this speech after years of messaging that the Democrats are the enemy of Trump and Trump's followers proves it wasn't yet another piece of incitement. He absolutely encouraged "fighting." So either you believe he's a complete imbecile who does not understand what happens if you get a bunch of armed citizens to believe their favorite rights will be lost if they allow a fraudulent election of a Democratic President to come to fruition, or you understand that he was intentional with his language over time.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#968

Post by pstuart »

trident5000 wrote: post #151
pstuart wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a stupid gesture on her part and she paid a step price for that act, so it wasn't so free. When talking about the riots that happened it important to acknowledge all the players. Most of the protesters against police brutality were peaceful and exercising first amendment rights of the first degree -- complaining about government abuses. There are recorded cases of agents provocateur, e.g., https://www.startrib…

No platform recourse and they didnt even ban the material, even today. You could say the capital protestors were “mostly peaceful” as well as the vast majority did not storm the building. Even those on the capital steps were a tiny minority of who showed up. Im really not here to argue case by case and combat mental gymnastics for why one sides extremism is ok but the others is not. Im simply pointing out that all pl…

So you're saying that she didn't have a right to post that picture at all?

Again, what she did was stupid and tasteless, but if you think that it was intended as a call for violence then you're venturing into Rorschach test territory.

The capitol "protest" was designed to lead to the attack on the house. Perhaps many present were just there to just "speak up" but the breach itself was no accident.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#969

Post by pstuart »

roenxi wrote: post #859
pstuart wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She lost a lot of work over it -- therefore she did pay a price. As stupid and tasteless as it was, to make it into a call for others to cut off his head is specious at best. And that's a key issue in play: the intent of the the message. You're engaging in weak whataboutism.

> You're engaging in weak whataboutism. One of the major threads of the political discourse is that right wing businesses, representatives and protestors are being treated differently than left wing ones. How would you - even theoretically - make that case without drawing comparisons? There is little room to argue that if any figure associated with the right was waving a mock severed head around that would be cause f…

Left wing protestors were protesting against police brutality. And violence occurring at those protests must be recognized as having outside agitators intent on derailing the peaceful protest.

The right wing protestors at the capitol were trying to overturn the results of the democratic process, and were prepared to do so by force.

There's a difference there.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#970

Post by lodi »

ipsocannibal wrote: post #88
jennyyang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's their right to spew whatever they want. Just because it's worthless doesn't mean we should stop it. I personally think every single conversation in Twitter is absolutely worthless, maybe even has negative value. Does that give me the right to shut down Twitter? No. I value free speech so if people want to waste their time spewing nonsense, that is their right.

I think this point of view neglects the emergent properties of a society where millions of people can spew nonsense all at once, at the speed of light, using AI assisted audience targeting. Crackpots and liars have existed since the beginning of time but never before has a technology been designed to so readily amplify and reenforce their nonsense. Never before has a technology been so adept at hiding from you that t…

"At the speed of light" isn't the problem. We also used to communicate at the speed of light through MySpace, text messages, and so on without these specific problems.
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