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Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#821

Post by mistermann »

sanderjd wrote: post #649
mistermann wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate a plausible (does not rely on significant speculation or hypotheticals) series of events at the Capitol incident that could have resulted in democracy being legitimately lost in America? I am unable to come up with one.

This is a very easy exercise: instead of cowering while letting other people take risks in his name, President Trump walks over to the Capitol. With him at the head of the column, many more people storm the building (the Capitol police likely don't put up a fight because nobody told them to fight the President), they occupy the building and take representatives hostage. At this point in time there is no longer a demo…

This is a legitimately good description of an arguably plausible (but still plausible!) scenario. But I must note that democracy is not lost in this scenario...unless you'd like to explain:

> At this point in time there is no longer a democracy in the US.

If we were to attach a debugger and step through the code, what state (variables and their values) would represent a valid scenario of democracy no longer existing in the United States? Or I suppose we could just look at the implementation of IsDemocracy(), assuming the designer of this shitty simulation is reasonably organized.

> The only thing that saved us from this was Trump's cowardice.

Well, that and other things that you haven't considered.

I don't say these things because I think these morons are righteous, or Trump is a good president, or because I think this event is insignificant, but the opposite: I think this scenario is extremely significant - so significant that I suggest we discuss it with the same rigorous precision that is usually reserved only for discussing topics like computer programming. I think a decent argument could be made that the welfare of the country inside of which we write computer code should command at least as much respect during conversations (even if begrudged) as we enthusiastically heap upon coding arguments.

But of course, this is just my opinion. And to be fair, if shit really does ever hit the fan, most everyone in this forum is well off enough to get the hell out of dodge to some other country that hasn't gone down the drain, where we can start the process all over again.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#822

Post by ardy42 »

honest_guy wrote: post #332
ardy42 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? And…

> Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement. > I'm obviously not claiming that lying was invented in the last few years, so pointing out some lie that gained traction in the past doesn't really challenge anything I said. You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining…

>> Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait?

> I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement.

Oh, I see. I think the difference is that wasn't really the casus belli for the Gulf War (the Wikipedia entry doesn't mention Nayirah at all, for instance), while the WMD lie was the literal casus belli for the Iraq War.

> You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining traction in the marketplace of ideas. I am pointing out that lies have forever gained traction in the marketplace of ideas, while also being co-signed by authoritative news sources and politicians.

I think we're using different definitions of "blatant." I'm talking about stuff like QAnon or Stop the Steal. In comparison, the lies you're talking about are far more credible and believable.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#823

Post by ashtonkem »

smsm42 wrote: post #404
stolen_biscuit wrote: post #330

A portion of your citizens were called to storm your nations capital by a President who refuses to accept the results of a democratic election. The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. Do not pretend the people who are frightened of these actions are overreacting. Democracy is a fragile thing, and you have a portion of your population who attempted to take a hammer to it. Don't pretend this is a narrati…

> The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour. Fortunately, absolutely nothing happened to the democracy and it proceeded on its course. What could actually erode the democracy is nation giving up on free speech. That'd be a real sign of nation in severe distress. > I don't listen to your news…

> That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour.

A crappy tour of Congress during a key transition of power, where they intended to kill the VP and whoever had displeased them. After action reports are indicating that they got within 60s and 90 feet of the VP, and we're not even done hearing the story of that day.

Coup attempts are always humorous until they actually work. Do not mistake us getting lucky this time with the narrative that nothing could have happened.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#824

Post by medntech »

rodgerd wrote: post #635
thayne wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this hypothetical: what if Trump had won and Biden supporters stormed the white house, and had organized using a primarily left-leaning social network. Would AWS and others, have responded the same way? My guess is no. That isn't to say that they wouldn't do anything, but I doubt the social network would be completely shut down with so little notice.

You wrote "hypothetical" but what you presented was an evidence-free strawman.

This comment doesn't contribute to the discussion. What evidence would be helpful?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#825

Post by rayiner »

joshuamorton wrote: post #815
rayiner wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that doesn't mean that the USA needs to have a fact-free Republican party, it could easily change if it really wanted to, at the expense of not being in power for a couple of decades. If Democrats held power for a couple of decades, the country would be unrecognizable. Take, for example, the issue of religion. Americans are the most religious developed country by far—comparable to Iran. This drives Democrats cr…

> If Democrats held power for a couple of decades, the country would be unrecognizable. Take, for example, the issue of religion. Americans are the most religious developed country by far—comparable to Iran. This drives Democrats crazy, and through the period during which they controlled the Supreme Court based on FDR’s appointments, they turned America into one of the most secular countries in the world in terms of…

Americans are far more ardent practitioners of religion: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l.... In terms of people who pray daily, the US is over 50%, comparable to Bangladesh (a country where the dominant religion requires praying five times a day!). Germany is around 10%. Even Poland is only at 30%. Think of the laws in Poland. Abortion is mostly illegal. Same sex marriage is illegal. How would Poles react if the European Court of Human Rights overturned abortion laws in Poland?

As to what Democrats would do—we already have examples. FDR-appointed Supreme Courts interpreted the Establishment Clause to create a “wall of separation” prohibiting, for example, things like optional religious instruction in public schools, or public support of religious schools. These things are quite common in Europe.

Abortion is another example. While European countries left abortion to voters (with comparably religious countries like Poland still prohibiting it) the Supreme Court created a constitutional abortion right so broad it rendered illegal many limits and compromises voters even in liberal counties like France have embraced. Voters in France only recently liberalized waiting periods, and those are still required in Germany. In the US, those have been unconstitutional for decades.

Going forward, I would expect major changes to include extremely divisive measures such as mass amnesty (which Biden just stated will be a top priority). Also entrenchment of public unions, and federal bailouts of blue state public pension funds.

On the legal side, I’d expect a war on religious exemptions. Countries like Germany have moved slowly on areas like adoption by same-sex couples. In the US, meanwhile, there is a movement to push out religious-affiliated adoption agencies that cannot, consistent with their faith, place children with same-sex couples. In another example, Democratic activist organizations are pushing the Department of Education to pull accreditation of religious schools that teach traditional views of marriage. By contrast in many European countries, religious schools are eligible to receive tax dollars from school vouchers.

I’d also expect another major battleground to be the discrimination laws. Liberals deem “race blind” approaches like those taken in France to be “racist.” In 2014, to liberal Justices voted to overturn a Michigan law that prohibited schools from giving preferences to certain students based on race. These sorts of preferences are unpopular with the public (including with racial minorities) but championed by progressive educators. I’d expect the Supreme Court’s existing standards on discrimination, which embody traditional “race blind” approaches, to be a target if Democrats ever won a Supreme Court majority.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#826

Post by snow_mac »

Seeing the people storm the capital and decide that Trump actually won, trying to force him to retain his office sealed the deal for me. I'm now against the second amendment. Not the school shootings, not the movie theaters; I've shot and handled many guns, but seeing this total disconnect from reality shows me that Americans cannot responsibly handle the option to elect somebody, accept the results either way, let alone carry a firearm.

The whole notion of it takes just one good gun owner is total garbage. This is the law and order crowd, this is the crowd of "Just one good guy with a gun". Total garbage.

Trump lost. Get over it.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#827

Post by 7v3x3n3sem9vv »

koolba wrote: post #485
tibbydudeza wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word is incitement. First Rudy with his trial by combat nonsense and then Trump with his "we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and we're going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give -".

> First Rudy with his trial by combat nonsense and then Trump with his "we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and we're going to the Capitol and we're going to try and give -". I encourage you to look up these quotes so you can appreciate them in context rather than repeating garbage lines from left wing cable news. For example, if you watch Rudy’s speech or read the transcript you’ll be enlightened to realize…

Yes, read the transcript. Don't watch the video which clearly shows the true anger and sentiment behind the speech.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

"Hey guys, there's a fire", said in a dull sarcastic tone is not the same as screaming it at the top of your lungs with a frightened look on your face.

But yes, encourage people to read the transcript and not watch the video with their own eyes.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#828

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #715
jacquesm wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live is not exactly a country tied together in that way. And yet, we have plenty of immigrants, first and second generation in politics. We also have the backlash against that, roughly equivalent to the position the Republican party in the USA takes. But that doesn't mean that the USA needs to have a fact-free Republican party, it could easily change if it really wanted to, at the expense of not being in powe…

> But that doesn't mean that the USA needs to have a fact-free Republican party, it could easily change if it really wanted to, at the expense of not being in power for a couple of decades. If Democrats held power for a couple of decades, the country would be unrecognizable. Take, for example, the issue of religion. Americans are the most religious developed country by far—comparable to Iran. This drives Democrats cr…

[deleted]

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#829

Post by joering2 »

ashtonkem wrote: post #823
smsm42 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very foundation of your democracy has been eroded. That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour. Fortunately, absolutely nothing happened to the democracy and it proceeded on its course. What could actually erode the democracy is nation giving up on free speech. That'd be a real sign of nation in severe distress. > I don't listen to your news…

> That would be a crappy democracy if it could be eroded by a bunch of idiots taking an unauthorized Whitehouse tour. A crappy tour of Congress during a key transition of power, where they intended to kill the VP and whoever had displeased them. After action reports are indicating that they got within 60s and 90 feet of the VP, and we're not even done hearing the story of that day. Coup attempts are always humorous u…

Interesting though from a friend of mine who teaches US Constitution: if number two and three (Pence and Pelosi) were killed, the full and complete power lays in number one - the President. By the time consitutional lawyers and politicans were to be done arguying it otherwise thru regular channles - we would have a full blown Monarchy installed in this country, and completely lawfully should I add. I think majority of people have absolutely no idea how close we got to overturning US political system. And I dont believe Trump or his family were not on it, but it will take years to get to the bottom of it.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#830

Post by dang »

mistermann wrote: post #821
sanderjd wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very easy exercise: instead of cowering while letting other people take risks in his name, President Trump walks over to the Capitol. With him at the head of the column, many more people storm the building (the Capitol police likely don't put up a fight because nobody told them to fight the President), they occupy the building and take representatives hostage. At this point in time there is no longer a demo…

This is a legitimately good description of an arguably plausible (but still plausible!) scenario. But I must note that democracy is not lost in this scenario...unless you'd like to explain: > At this point in time there is no longer a democracy in the US. If we were to attach a debugger and step through the code, what state (variables and their values) would represent a valid scenario of democracy no longer existing…

It looks like you've been using this site primarily for political battle. That's not what HN is for, and it destroys what it is for, so we ban accounts that do it (regardless of their politics). Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stop doing this.
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