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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#911

Post by jupp0r »

tzs wrote: post #30

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…

My guess is you don't have children under 5 who can't be vaccinated right now. Yes, there is a low chance of complications, but it's still the most deadly infectious disease for that age group [1] and I'd rather have my kids obtain antibodies through vaccination than disease.

[1] https://twitter.com/GYamey/status/1455708642297188354

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#912

Post by eyelidlessness »

> demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in

Just as people commonly rush out of a burning building, then swiftly right back into it. Because they’re safe from the fire now, and being outside the burning building is a life threatening emergency.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#913

Post by jupp0r »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #486
skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

The thing they don't always mention is that hospital capacity is always close to being overwhelmed, by design, because otherwise you're sitting around with a large amount of extraordinarily expensive idle hospital capacity. A small change is enough to go from "almost full" to "over capacity." The seemingly obvious thing to do would be to build some temporary capacity specifically for COVID patients. We've had quite a…

> I'm not sure what's preventing it

It takes time to to train doctors and nurses, they don't grow on trees. Opening immigration for these professions could be a short term solution but getting a US license is complicated too (maybe rightfully so).

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#914

Post by standardUser »

nradov wrote: post #905
standardUser wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unvaccinated people have caused other people to suffer worse health outcomes because unvaccinated people are disproportionately filling hospital and ICU beds (and wearing out doctors and nurses). Developing antibodies the old fashioned way is great! Doing it with vaccines saves other people's lives. That is the problem with people who refuse the vaccine and why they deserve to be vilified.

Vilifying people for making unhealthy choices is never an effective public health measure. It didn't work for the HIV/AIDS epidemic and it won't work now. Try education and harm reduction instead.

I think it was clear I was not offering a public policy idea. I was explaining the common emotional response most of us have when they see people make decisions that they know will cause physical harm others. Like poisoning a river or driving drunk.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#915

Post by dekhn »

muaytimbo wrote: post #910
dekhn wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I give that recommendation for the same reason I floss my teeth when asking my children do so; it's modelling good behavior to establish life-long health habits. It's not that I think flossing is particularly effective at countering gum disease (compared to just brushing alone), but it's the mainstream position and I think it's better to model "follow mainstream science" than "repeatedly question the medical establis…

If I had kids I think I would encourage the exact opposite behavior. As a scientist by training I have been trained to be skeptical, question everything, and do my own research. I would hope to pass that along to my children. I also think you've set up a straw man to knockdown when you equate being skeptical to "question[ing] the medical establishment without data". There's no shortage of data out there on and around…

I'm a skeptic, but it gets in the way of pedagogy, for example we often don't teach high school students how friction really works (according to the most up to date theories). Instead they get a few basic equations that describe a much simpler model (and which fall down if you try to make some predictions). Certainly I teach my children to be mildly skeptical, but I see no value in them questioning flossing until they're about 16 and can start to read and argue for themselves. And even then, I don't think most people are capable to read primary literature or review articles.

As to searching on pubmed and reading for weeks: that's the problem! The vast majority of people are not qualified to read the scientific literature. You need extensive training to learn how to read literature and evaluate it properly. This is especially true for medical/biology research. Learning to be proficient in that world (medical biology/public health literature) is the price of entry for being effective at changing policies. The Skeptics don't always win.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#916

Post by yanmaani »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #907
throw__away7391 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when the US invaded Iraq to "find weapons of mass destruction"? Then a year or two later that shifted to "fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here", then "winning hearts and minds" or something. Once you get a mandate for a large-scale, politically charged activity it will never stop; the goal posts will be moved again and again, as many times as it takes and as often as necessary to…

> This is no longer about fighting a disease, if it ever was, this is about securing access to resources and power for one group over another. yeah it's all a big conspiracy to put the bars and restaurants out of business for sinister reasons that are beyond imagination.

People stop patronizing bars, restaurants, shops, etc, instead spend their leisure time/money/etc on infinitely more scalable digital services. Beyond imagination?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#917

Post by chaostheory »

nomel wrote: post #908
chaostheory wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that you need to include the people for masks and those against it. Unlike vaccines, masks do not lose efficacy over time or due to new variants. Both anti-vax and pro-vaccine supporters can fall into the anti-mask category. I don’t understand why people in the West are so anti-mask. It's been two years since I've gotten sick with anything. 1. Covid-recovered and Vaccinated + pro-mask 2. Covid-recovered and Pa…

> in the West are so anti-mask. It's been two years since I've gotten sick with anything. For one data point, I'm vaccinated, had Omicron, and am now "anti-mask", as in, I think they are more harmful to me than not wearing a mask. The vaccines/boosters only target one protein, of 28. I want periodic exposure to all the proteins, to keep my immunity up and minimize my risk for now and future variants. Of course, I wea…

> I want periodic exposure to all the proteins, to keep my immunity up and minimize my risk for now and future variants.

I think this makes sense to say now that the new variants are becoming less and less lethal. At the same time, this sounds similar to anti-vaccine arguments.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#918

Post by djmips »

nu11ptr wrote: post #789
djmips wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't illustrate your point. You, on your soapbox pretend you have it all figured out. You, on the side of science. But as some of the responses have shown, you haven't really thought it through. I agree however, that the media hasn't either. But when was that ever true?

First, apologies for slight snugness of that that reply - probably not needed, and I've received some probably well deserved downvotes for that. Second, it does prove my point in that the poster referred to the "unvaccinated" as a single group, a position that I'm suggesting results in a very inaccurate set of conclusions (which other responders have commented on) because of skewed cohorts. Third, I most definitely d…

That's a reasonable answer. I appreciate that. I agree on your main point.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#919

Post by Mezzie »

AshleyGrant wrote: post #758
autokad wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my first 2 shots were fine, but my booster f'ed me up. I was in lots of body pain for 36 hours. 5 weeks later I caught omicron. I imagine by some point this year Ill be considered not fully vaccinated, but right now my desire to get another booster is very small. right now we know that even the booster provides little ability to stop you from getting omicron. likely by the next mandated booster the variant of the tim…

> right now we know that even the booster provides little ability to stop you from getting omicron This is true, but the data is showing that being boosted means that catching Omicron when boosted means you are much, much more likely to have a very minor illness. Refusing future boosters comes at the risk of your own health, as well as the health of the people around you.

I'm curious what you think of situations like mine:

I have MS, and I'm not sure that frequently boosting my immune system when I have an autoimmune disease is the best idea. In addition, I'm in a single-income WFH household and we easily isolated when we got omicron. My sister and I literally caught Omicron together and just quarantined for 14 days. We had our mother drop off stuff on the doorstep so we didn't have to go out/expose anyone. It was boring, but I'm damn sure we didn't infect anyone.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#920

Post by vecinu »

crackercrews wrote: post #754
kajecounterhack wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the powerful can ignore their own rules, they're more likely to enact sweeping mandates. The sweeping mandates are for our public health. These folks aren't asking us to mask up or vaccinate for their own benefit. And they can only sorta ignore their own rules, because aren't they being roasted in the media when they mess up? The fourth estate at work. It will affect their re-election chances. > The problem is…

> nor did he conduct himself in the way a public servant held to a higher standard should No one is asking for a higher standard. > aren't they being roasted in the media when they mess up? The fourth estate at work Was there any coverage in NYT/CNN/WaPo of Biden shopping maskless? I only heard about it because I happened to read some news from a right-leaning site. > It will affect their re-election chances. I'm pre…

> Was there any coverage in NYT/CNN/WaPo of Biden shopping maskless?

I have a difficult time believing Biden does any shopping on his own.

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