Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#901

Post by mjrpes » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:26 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #719

buryat wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

simple numbers show that unvaccinated get covid at higher rates and the number of hospitalizations is higher which puts strain on the hospitals. If something happens to me I dont want an unvaccinated taking a spot I need.

Are you worried you won't have care at a hospital because of someone is unvaccinated? Has that ever happened? Are hospitals full where you live? Where did you get a fear like that?

There are 100s of new articles around the country about hospitals near or at capacity and patient care being affected, due to omicron surge. Here is just one:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-20/hospital...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#902

Post by RedBeetDeadpool » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:26 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #10

Some people are saying that this is notable because Pfizer has a financial incentive to keep vaccine mandates. That is not true. Pfizer is going to be making a lot more money from their COVID treatments than from the vaccine.

> That is not true. Pfizer is going to be making a lot more money from their COVID treatments than from the vaccine.

Not if the vaccines don't work!

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#903

Post by jkhdigital » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:28 AM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #699

IgorPartola wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only people who make getting vaccinated a political matter are those who refuse to get vaccinated. If you look at the data (and not just the convenient headlines) “unvaccinated, prior infection” have a lot higher chance of reinfection and a lot higher chance of a severe outcome than vaccinated. Sure it is still better to be “unvaccinated, prior infection” vs “unvaccinated, no prior infection” but not the same ord…

> Roughly speaking this is the difference between your risk of driving with no seat belt and no air bags (unvaccinated), no seat belt and no air bags but with a bicycle helmet (prior infection), seatbelt (vaccinated), and seatbelt and airbags (vaccinated and boosted). It's absolutely not the same delta there. Not even close. The relative risk and absolute risk are completely different in magnitude, and unvaccinated c…

> There is LITERALLY a 1000X delta in IFR between the youngest and oldest demographics.

This is the point that I can’t seem to express eloquently enough to overcome the nonstop torrent of poorly calibrated advice from the authorities. I don’t have time to pore over the data, but last time I checked the annualized death totals for children (17 and under) were approximately equal to the 2019 deaths from influenza for that age group. When the marginal benefit of vaccination gets that low, you do have to start asking whether the side effects are worth it—trading a 0.01% risk of myocarditis for a 2% risk of death is clearly worth it, but can you say the same when the risk of death is on the same order of magnitude as the side effects?

(edit: numbers are hand-wavy, not trying to make an authoritative point)

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#904

Post by nomel » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #791

benjaminwootton wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that triple jabbing the worlds healthy 5-30 year olds will not move the needle on hospital demand. They are simply not vulnerable to the disease in a significant way. So sure, let’s discuss unvaxxed/1 shot/2 shot/boosted splits, but in the relevant population. To focus on 20 year olds is a red herring.

COVID vaccines reduce the incidence of long COVID symptoms, which most definitely affect young people.

Do you have a reference? It seems "long COVID" isn't completely understood, especially in the young: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/young-people-less-...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#905

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #879

nu11ptr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

Unvaccinated people have caused other people to suffer worse health outcomes because unvaccinated people are disproportionately filling hospital and ICU beds (and wearing out doctors and nurses). Developing antibodies the old fashioned way is great! Doing it with vaccines saves other people's lives. That is the problem with people who refuse the vaccine and why they deserve to be vilified.

Vilifying people for making unhealthy choices is never an effective public health measure. It didn't work for the HIV/AIDS epidemic and it won't work now. Try education and harm reduction instead.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#906

Post by upsidesinclude » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:33 AM UTC

bonzini wrote: post #614

nu11ptr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…

> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…

No post body was provided.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#907

Post by Tiktaalik » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

throw__away7391 wrote: post #356

xboxnolifes wrote: post #209

(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the…

Remember when the US invaded Iraq to "find weapons of mass destruction"? Then a year or two later that shifted to "fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here", then "winning hearts and minds" or something. Once you get a mandate for a large-scale, politically charged activity it will never stop; the goal posts will be moved again and again, as many times as it takes and as often as necessary to…

> This is no longer about fighting a disease, if it ever was, this is about securing access to resources and power for one group over another.

yeah it's all a big conspiracy to put the bars and restaurants out of business for sinister reasons that are beyond imagination.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#908

Post by nomel » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #587

walterbell wrote: post #38

The media's binary separation of populations into vax and unvax is a false dichotomy. More causal factors would be represented by: 1. Covid-recovered 2. Vaccinated 3. Partly-vaccinated ( CDC reporting bundles #3 and #4. UK reports all 4 categories separately. #1 was already a high percentage in 2021 and is now higher due to Omicron. Edit: CDC estimated pre-Omicron #1 as 146 million people (as of Oct 2021), https://ww…

I feel that you need to include the people for masks and those against it. Unlike vaccines, masks do not lose efficacy over time or due to new variants. Both anti-vax and pro-vaccine supporters can fall into the anti-mask category. I don’t understand why people in the West are so anti-mask. It's been two years since I've gotten sick with anything. 1. Covid-recovered and Vaccinated + pro-mask 2. Covid-recovered and Pa…

> in the West are so anti-mask. It's been two years since I've gotten sick with anything.

For one data point, I'm vaccinated, had Omicron, and am now "anti-mask", as in, I think they are more harmful to me than not wearing a mask. The vaccines/boosters only target one protein, of 28. I want periodic exposure to all the proteins, to keep my immunity up and minimize my risk for now and future variants.

Of course, I wear a mask as a courtesy for others. But, if nobody around me has a mask, I will remove mine.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#909

Post by mlac » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #862

mlac wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you skipped this wall of text, stop and read it. Well said. Adding on, immunity declines over time, so to maintain it would either mean reinfection or booster…

when you say "wall of text" do you mean I could have rewritten my points to be more effective (all my writing is propaganda and my goal is to convince more people, the proxy for which is upvotes)"? The reason it's structured the way it is is that I only spent a little time editing it after I banged out the essential points. "I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter."

Not at all. I mean it is a lot of text for a comment and my tendency is to skim or skip the long ones.

It was worth reading.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#910

Post by muaytimbo » Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 1:52 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #801

muaytimbo wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the vaccines are less efficacious than initially reported (~94% decrease in the probability of disease incidence). I just don't understand how you square that with your conclusion, just keep getting boosted some indeterminate number of times by vaccines we know are 1) not as good as advertised, and 2) seem to be providing less and less protection over time as new var…

I give that recommendation for the same reason I floss my teeth when asking my children do so; it's modelling good behavior to establish life-long health habits. It's not that I think flossing is particularly effective at countering gum disease (compared to just brushing alone), but it's the mainstream position and I think it's better to model "follow mainstream science" than "repeatedly question the medical establis…

If I had kids I think I would encourage the exact opposite behavior. As a scientist by training I have been trained to be skeptical, question everything, and do my own research. I would hope to pass that along to my children.

I also think you've set up a straw man to knockdown when you equate being skeptical to "question[ing] the medical establishment without data". There's no shortage of data out there on and around this topic. You can search on PubMed and literally read for weeks.