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The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

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Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#901

Post by tstrimple »

m0llusk wrote: post #693
embedding-shape wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing). Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How…

There are a lot of differences. Americans are not being passive. For one thing, reasonable or not there is still a lot of faith in the election process and many are expecting all this craziness will put Republicans on a back seat for decades. For another, these ICE groups are well armed and operate in numbers. Many Americans are also armed and have deep misgivings about political violence and where this is headed. Wh…

> For one thing, reasonable or not there is still a lot of faith in the election process and many are expecting all this craziness will put Republicans on a back seat for decades.

If only the country wasn't systematically designed to favor conservatives. Low population states have way too much influence on this country. It's one of the reasons we're so fucking backwards compared to the rest of the world. We're held hostage in part by places like Wyoming and Nebraska. Our House representation has been capped so we're getting fucked on representation and the electoral college as well. On top of that, the conservative's willingness to lie and cheat certainly puts them at significant advantage as well. Stunts like convincing someone with the same name as your opponent to run as well in hopes of confusing the voters and splitting up votes to running as a Democrat only to switch as soon as elected.

Liberals just aren't equipped or willing to fight against conservative fuckery. If liberals fought half as hard to support their lip services towards helping people as conservatives fought for fucking people over, we might actually make progress in this country.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#902

Post by parkuman »

embedding-shape wrote: post #631
rybosworld wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are Americans so passive? I think it's important to realize how divided the U.S. is right now. Half the country is in favor of what ICE is doing in some form or another. Some people on the right are denouncing the _way_ ICE is accomplishing this. But they are far from outraged. The other half of the country is as dumbfounded/shocked as the rest of the world. This isn't like the French revolution where a majorit…

> It cannot be understated the role that Fox News has played to get us to this level of division. Yeah, it's been a sharp shift, as someone who've watched/read Fox News (and other news of course) for decades out of the US. Fox News always been a bit strange with it's vitriol, but at one point, I can't remember if it was around the middle of Obama's second term, or later, but it took a really sharp turn further into e…

+1 on the Dear Kelly film! While I don't think it explains everyone's radicalization, in this scenario I can see how Kelly fell down his hole of disillusionment

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#903

Post by xyzelement »

fzeroracer wrote: post #877
xyzelement wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet that's true just on a statistical level - but my point is that plenty of people still feel that way, or at least have felt that way recently enough about the underlying problem that won't cause them to riot. There's an interesting other angle that I heard about "terrorizing a city" type thing -- there are many million illegal immigrants in the US who entered in just the last few years, when the prior admi…

> The size of the problem basically leaves no "nice" solutions that are perfectly palatable to everyone. Maybe like "nobody wants to hear about an amputation" but unfortunately some situations are bad enough that you have to. Are you volunteering to be part of the bad solution, or is it only OK as long as it happens far enough away from you? I'm curious because when you talk about needing an amputation, you're referr…

I am not sure what you're talking about so I can tell you what I meant.

Life is complex and important things are always in tension.

Do I think ICE needs to deport every single illegal from this country? Yes I do. Do I think Americans have a right to protest against ICE if they don't agree with this? Yes I do.

I support both and that's fine, the challenge is what happens when these two things collide. For example, when someone's protest involves them interfering with an ICE operation, striking an officer with their vehicle (unintentionally, I think) and getting shot in the process.

That's impacted by scale. If the US had 1 illegal immigrant to catch and deport, and 100 protestors got hurt in the process, that would seem disproportionate. When we have millions of illegals to deport, 100 protestor getting hurt is still bad but is kinda inevitable in the statistical risk sense.

Do I want that to impact me? Of course not. Ideally that would have been handled years ago so we didn't have the scale of problem that necessitates an aggravated approach. But we do.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#904

Post by chaps »

Izkata wrote: post #869
chaps wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't mean she deserves it, but that she was doing something stupid without realizing just how stupid it was Am I right to say that your argument can be summarized as, "She didn't deserve it, but her actions were deserving of it"? Or maybe "merited"? I'm genuinely confused by what you mean by " deserves ". (just to be explicit, the disagreement we have here is very much about what the word "deserves" means r…

"Deserved" is a stronger word than "earned" or "merited", there's a sense of satisfaction or entitlement (though negative) behind that word. Something like, to say that she deserved death means saying she should have died for what she did, that it was the right outcome. That's not what we're saying. It's more like, the actions the officer took weren't in the wrong despite the bad outcome. She made really bad choices,…

> Another quick aside since I suspect this is a second point of confusion, "lethal force" does not mean "with the intent to kill", it means "force that is likely to cause severe injury or death".

It.. is not. I suspect that you have some fundamental misunderstandings of firearm safety and I would not feel safe at a range with someone who thinks this way.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#905

Post by fzeroracer »

xyzelement wrote: post #903
fzeroracer wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The size of the problem basically leaves no "nice" solutions that are perfectly palatable to everyone. Maybe like "nobody wants to hear about an amputation" but unfortunately some situations are bad enough that you have to. Are you volunteering to be part of the bad solution, or is it only OK as long as it happens far enough away from you? I'm curious because when you talk about needing an amputation, you're referr…

I am not sure what you're talking about so I can tell you what I meant. Life is complex and important things are always in tension. Do I think ICE needs to deport every single illegal from this country? Yes I do. Do I think Americans have a right to protest against ICE if they don't agree with this? Yes I do. I support both and that's fine, the challenge is what happens when these two things collide. For example, whe…

> Do I want that to impact me? Of course not. Ideally that would have been handled years ago so we didn't have the scale of problem that necessitates an aggravated approach. But we do.

So you accept the necessity of needing to carry your papers in order to prove your citizenship, or needing to deal with door to door warrentless raids, or potentially getting your property destroyed by overzealous ICE agents with no recourse? That's my point. You are saying that the scale of the problem means it's acceptable for your rights to be trampled on. And I'm asking you personally if you're willing to be one of the sacrifices in the name of this system.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#906

Post by rootusrootus »

lmz wrote: post #866
rootusrootus wrote: post #840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are getting downvoted, but this is a fair point. The only other country with a higher estimate for illegal immigrant population is Russia. The next closest Western European country is France, with barely over half the rate of the US. [0] [0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/percentag...

In the poorer parts of the world, people absolutely detest illegal immigrants (or basically most working migrants as well) because they are taking jobs from the locals. They hate refugees because there's not enough resources to go around to use in feeding and housing them. Welcoming people in because "no-one wants to do those jobs" is very much a luxury belief of the well off.

I think the number of people who welcome immigrants for this reason is actually quite small, and is mostly business owners. And to be fair, they are not entirely wrong -- all evidence we have suggests that many of the jobs are so hard that getting citizens to do them would require bumping the wage 3, 4, 5 times, and even then it is a tough sell.

What I think has happened culturally is that Americans see us as the shining beacon on the hill, where everyone wants to be, and so we feel sympathetic to those who will do whatever it takes to come here. There are lots of cultural references historically that reinforce this mythology. Call it American Exceptionalism or whatever, but the mythology is real.

Between our own loss in confidence and the onslaught of 'America Bad' inundating the online dialogue, this mythology is dying in a hurry. Makes me a little sad, honestly, because I am of the opinion that a nation benefits from a strong mythology. Sometimes that is served by religion, but in the US it has for a long time been 'Land of Opportunity' and associated beliefs. I dare anyone to go to the US Capitol tour and watch that 15 minute intro video about the founding of the country and not come away with a tear in their eye. It's quite moving, even if it is largely a fabrication.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#907

Post by xnx »

asa400 wrote: post #560
embedding-shape wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing). Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How…

First, all of what you say is true. I'm going to try to add a little context as someone who is here on the ground, in the city in question. There is the imminent threat of mass death, and no one here is under any illusions about it. Every ICE agent is armed, and most have ready access to automatic weapons. These are not well-trained members of an elite organization with a storied, patriotic culture. ICE is a personal…

Poorly trained police deployed into a volatile crowd with intent to draw an attack, justifying brutal retaliation by military forces. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#908

Post by blurbleblurble »

mlrtime wrote: post #884
blurbleblurble wrote: post #881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because historians haven't yet given the beast a name, it acts and growls just like like exactly what it is, and "civil war" is exactly what some members of the federal administration want, as you might read in their brazen proclamations about re-interpreting the constitution along a hundred dimensions at once. https://www.project2025.observer/en The local and federal authorities are at a complete standoff right…

I'm paying attention, just not buying into administration wanting a civil war. Won't happen.

Regardless, would you agree that we're watching a constitutional crisis unfold? The stability of case law is being completely undermined.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#909

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

NonHyloMorph wrote: post #746
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country For people who think borders are just lines, our country as geography doesn't even exist. It's just lines. For people who think that all people are the same, everywhere, and deserve to go where they please, our country as a people doesn't exist either. So if that's your conception of a country, why should I care about i…

Is this metaphor or did you actually experience this?

We are all experiencing this, just at a larger scale. To call it a metaphor is to deny the reality, nothing about this is metaphorical.

It hurts all of us, but those on the left are willing to endure the torment if it they think it hurts their opponents more. They're willing to endure it if they think that tihs will swing voting numbers in their favor in the coming decades. The right to live within the United States, as an actual inalienable right and not just some temporary privilege is called citizenship, and those without it have no such right.

When those of you vote me down so you can pretend that everyone disagrees with me, you're setting yourself up for failure in the future. You will believe your own echo chamber and be sure that the Democrats will inevitably win, once and for all, because how can they not when they never hear anyone disagreeing with them? The numbers aren't on your side at all.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#910

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

Ray20 wrote: post #896
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hypocritical, racist, out-of-touch elitist like Kamala Harris. Gee I wonder what side of the political spectrum you align to... I like rule of law and due process. I like the Constitution and its balance of powers. I think that a good chunk of Americans also like these things. I believe the current administration is acting in extremely contrary ways to those things. So yes, I expect more Americans to stand up and s…

> I like rule of law and due process. Many people like this. It's just that the choice, as far as I understand, is not between rule of law and authoritarian dictatorship. > I like the Constitution and its balance of powers. And here, frankly speaking, I'm unfamiliar with the American Constitution in these aspects. How does it work? Does it only protect citizens? Or residents too? Does it protect illegal aliens too? D…

There's extensive case law on most of those points, just do a bit of research.
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