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The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

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Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing). Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How…

> Why are Americans so passive? I think it's important to realize how divided the U.S. is right now. Half the country is in favor of what ICE is doing in some form or another. Some people on the right are denouncing the _way_ ICE is accomplishing this. But they are far from outraged. The other half of the country is as dumbfounded/shocked as the rest of the world. This isn't like the French revolution where a majorit…

> It cannot be understated the role that Fox News has played to get us to this level of division.

Yeah, it's been a sharp shift, as someone who've watched/read Fox News (and other news of course) for decades out of the US. Fox News always been a bit strange with it's vitriol, but at one point, I can't remember if it was around the middle of Obama's second term, or later, but it took a really sharp turn further into emotional reporting and partisanship. Again, Fox always been a bit special, and other news channels also did similar turns further into their sides, but I can remember seeing the change as it was happening.

There is another documentary I quite liked in similar vein but on an individual level, called "Dear Kelly", that follows a far-right conspiracy theorist and tries to give some understanding into Kelly's struggles and radicalization. Released independently and can be found here: https://www.dearkellyfilm.com/

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#632
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I must have not understood your point. Could you clarify? I have been following all of this closely

I'm not understanding your point either, so here's how I'm interpreting what you're saying, in good faith: "she was in the way, so it was worth shooting her. fullstop". So I'm struggling to understand why you seem to be okay with shooting someone for being in the way. So please explain to me why you think "obstruction" was worth shooting her.

She wasn't shot for obstructing federal agents. The series of events are as follows: 1. She obstructed federal agents 2. She resisted arrest/detainment 3. She accelerated into a federal agent 4. She was shot

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#633
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

That’s not an answer. Please explain why it’s a bad thing that Palantir had produced an application that shows ICE agents the probable addresses of people they’re supposed to deport along with information about them. If the answer is “I don’t believe in immigration law and the government should not enforce it regardless of what people vote for”, that’s a completely acceptable answer.

I'll engage.

First: I do not believe immigration laws should be enforced in their entirety vis-a-vis mass deportation. Decades of flawed immigration laws, flawed employment laws and flawed enforcement have led to the current situation where millions of people are in this country undocumented, who are otherwise law-abiding, decent people who contribute to their communities and love the US. The rhetoric about immigrants being a drain on society are flawed at best, and hatefully wrong and bad faith at worst.

Second: If we want to get a handle on immigration volume and change the system so fewer people are undocumented, the correct response logistically and morally is to create a path to legal status (not citizenship) for those currently here, who have been here for a long time, who have families and who have not committed violent crime.

Third: If someone wanted to maximize the effectiveness of immigration enforcement resources for the purpose of safety using deportation, they would still be doing targeting of violent offenders. They clearly are not. Stephen Miller wants all undocumented people out of this country because he is a white supremacist. When "moderating forces" in the administration tried to push back on raids at farms and factories, Miller angrily protested and got Trump to change his mind back to indiscriminate mass deportation.

Third, pt 2: If Republicans were serious about measured but effective reforms to reduce immigration, they would have accepted the 2024 legislative package that capped asylum volume and vastly increased border patrol and border judiciary resources to expedite cases and get people back out of the country in a fraction of the time the current system requires. Instead, they wanted to win the 2024 election with immigration as a wedge issue, and they want to pursue a maximalist position of fear and mass removal.

Fourth: The US federal government is a semi-democracy. We have a single-choice, no-runoff election system in most of the country that forces an extremist-friendly two party system, and the presidential election is further removed from popular choice by the electoral college. The president is the least "democratic" elected position in the nation. I do not think most people support the extent of the violence and maximalism of the administration.

Fifth: The surveillance technology being adopted by the government is not being used solely on undocumented citizens.

Finally: If I were in charge and wanted to take a stance on immigration, I would do largely what was in the 2024 bill, I would set up a work visa program for industries that heavily utilize undocumented labor, and I would target recent arrivals and criminals for deportation - not all undocumented residents.

---

TLDR: We're arresting and deporting veterans, PhD students critical of US policy, and people who have lived here for decades as part of the "American Dream" who have done no harm to our country. What is being done is not in the name of safety nor does it even indirectly improve the lives of Americans. Surveillance and tracking tools are being deployed against all citizens. In the broader context of the behavior and statements of Miller/Trump/Vance et al, this is part of a multi-pronged attack on democracy and the freedom of citizens from government intrusion.

Edit: and all of this debate is without the context of an administration that has declared itself above the law domestically and internationally, that has invaded a country for oil and is currently preparing to invade a treaty member of our strongest military alliance to steal their natural resources. So if the parent wonders why some people are hostile at debating this, it's because to debate the point at all is to ignore obvious truths.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#634
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From "a problem" to "rallying cry" is a pretty neat goalpost move. Leftists have long warned that expansions of government power (in general) and police militarization (specifically) are most likely to be eventually used against leftists.

Modern leftists are definitionally promoting expansion of government power - it is a core consequence of their beliefs. The late Murray Bookchin was the exception that proves the rule, and he was hardly popular or widely known, and made some astonishingly prescient interviews before he died about the direction it was all headed in.

> Modern leftists are definitionally promoting expansion of government power…

Care to name a specific example?

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe borders should exist, but they do. If you say otherwise you are simply in denial. Borders are promises of violence made by nation-states, which I also don't believe in, which nevertheless exist and are harming people. Whatever ideological differences we may have, need to be shelved. We can bicker about that later. For now, the border of the U.S. exists, and it's killing people.

> Whatever ideological differences we may have, need to be shelved. We can bicker about that later. For now, the border of the U.S. exists, and it's killing people. The ideological differences are, in no small part (directly or implicitly) over whether the border should exist and whether it killing the people it kills is a good or a bad thing. Can’t really just shelve that.

Well I figured that case was already covered in the previous comment.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel. 1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the firs…

I live in Europe, in an immigrant ghetto. Well, I'm not sure whether the word "immigrant" is correct, because most residents are second or third generation and have passports. The cultural gap is just too much. There are explosions 24/7 and the amount of trash on the street hurts my eyes. A party by my window at 2AM - check. It happens that you have a group of six guys walking down the middle of the road and the fuck…

[dead]

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#637
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because these systems are not only used on illegal immigrants. To give you a very clear example: a US citizen was murdered without any due process a few days ago by ICE. Because surveilling people -- PEOPLE , not citizens -- without probable cause is a violation of the US constitution? It is a bad thing because it leads to innocent people being brutalized, it's a violation of the constitution, it's very clearly the p…

“Due process” is not a magic incantation. This is emotional, moralizing rhetoric that doesn’t persuade anyone. People who insert themselves into operations involving the state’s actors who have a monopoly on violence are risking their lives and legal jurisprudence has upheld the state’s actions to stop them by whatever means necessary in similar cases many, many times. And it’s obvious things could not operate in any…

He answered your question perfectly now you're rolling your eyes at the concept of due process, which has little to do with the original conversation (why is Palantir bad?) Do you just like being contrarian?

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of us don't work at those places. And besides, what does discussing technology itself have anything to do with it? If you work at big tech you're not allowed to particpate in tech forum as a hobby? We already discuss politics here as it has to do with tech (privacy is a pretty common topic here for example).

>Most of us don't work at those places. Right, but we should be able to shame, ostracize, and criticize the people that do work at those places because if we don't then it's a tacit approval of what they do. You know that saying about how if you have three people sharing a bench with a Nazi, you actually have four Nazis? Tech has social and political ramifications, the discussion of which is artificially suppressed o…

I just disagree. I don't think you're entitled to shame people because you don't agree with the place they work at all. And I don't agree working at Google or whatever means you're not allowed to privately have a forum where you can talk about tech as a hobby.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly believe that is the intent behind the use of ICE in MN and beyond, and that is where it will stop?

Yes. ICE has existed long before Trump and will exist after. Deportation of illegal immigrants is not a new thing.

oh please.

I live by one of his golf courses.

The folks there watering the course, cutting the lawn, moving the greens, and cleaning the facilities are most definitely not US citizens, most definitely are not English speakers, and I'd bet a lot of money are not valid green card holders or work visa holders. You think his courses in immigration hotbeds like New York or Southern California are any different? Fuck no they aren't.

You're backing a wanna-be tough guy who can't even practice what he preaches.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing). Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How…

Isn't the same true of in the EU though? Immigrants and refugees from Syria were treated quite harshly and has led to a significant rise in far right parties across Europe. These parties are actively harassing immigrants and non-white groups. But there doesn't seem to be riots in the streets over it. It's almost flipped how the US and Europe have dealt with threats. The US has a long history of organized hate groups…

> These parties are actively harassing immigrants and non-white groups. But there doesn't seem to be riots in the streets over it.

It is true, we have vigilante groups going around sometimes acting violent against people they think are immigrants, it is a real problem. It isn't all across Europe, and it isn't super common, but it happens, and that's enough.

I think the difference is in who is coordinating these efforts, because none of those vigilante groups are the country's own border patrol doing that in "official business" capacity, they're small groups of individuals usually associated with some far-right political groups, rather than tax funded government groups.

If the latter were to happen, you can be pretty sure people wouldn't put up with it, because most of us realize what's coming after that, because we were all forced to study history growing up.

> So things are more fresh in the minds of citizens and they are more likely to fight them

Yeah, this seems to be a big factor, most of us here (Europe) still have parents (and grand-parents) who remember and witnessed a lot of awful shit, and growing up would immediately reprimand you if you just pretended to like that, or carry thoughts in those veins.

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