Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#901

Post by gonehome » Thu, Oct 05, 2023, 3:35 PM UTC

slumpt_ wrote: post #881

gonehome wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll concede this point - it is primarily about communication. In theory you can resolve this (I'm at a remote company now and think gathertown is a great tool for this), but the lift is high and I suspect the majority of remote companies are operating at a net negative vs. colocation because of this. Even with these tools, some natural amount of human communication/interaction is lost. It mostly hurts spontaneous co…

The competitive disadvantage RTO companies have is trying to hire locally. We have the pick of the best engineers from around the country (in some cases, world) because we pay bay area (startup adjusted) salaries regardless of where you live. The team is top notch - probably the best I’ve ever worked with. So yeah - a cost to maintaining comms culture, but the payoff can be pretty nonlinear.

My counter argument would be that a lot of the world’s best people move to hubs anyway to intentionally be around other great people.

So being located in the Bay Area gets you the world’s best people without the negative tradeoffs of remote.

That said, I think your point is valid for startups located outside of hubs. If your company would otherwise be located in rural South Dakota (or even a decent sized non-hub city), then yes - remote is more compelling for the reasons you state. Whether that’s a competitive advantage on net given the downsides is not clear to me.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#902

Post by aizyuval » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 6:14 AM UTC

Kudos for grabbing the balls! I like your attitude towards life.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#903

Post by fennecfoxy » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #886

fennecfoxy wrote: post #882

I have a "who's flying this thing?!" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3oYnlPfBvI ) theory. That a large number of CEOs/Executives/management etc are actually useless and achieve nothing; the impact that they have on the business is incredibly minimal and sometimes they are even a detriment to overall function. Look at your typical CEO of a large-ish company: what do they actually do? The business has presumably hir…

>> "Eyyyy, article author is a furry, too! :3 " He's not a fennec fox, unfortunately. Can't all be perfect.

https://media.tenor.com/zzxhtiVQDYAAAAAC/fennec-fox-why.gif

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#904

Post by fennecfoxy » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #900

Kye wrote: post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Eyyyy, article author is a furry, too! :3 " He's not a fennec fox, unfortunately. Can't all be perfect.

No but I have fennec friends ^w^

+ you gain a portable friend

- you will get tinnitus

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#905

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 3:44 PM UTC

cozzyd wrote: post #839

kjkjadksj wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the kid then when they are at the office? Probably in childcare then not left alone with a stove if they are at the bug you all day age. You can put them in childcare wile working remote too.

Many kids are taken care of by the other parent or a nanny or a relative.

[deleted]

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#906

Post by FearlessNebula » Fri, Oct 06, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #149

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Prior to COVID, everyone understood that remote work was supported by some companies and not others. It was also a type of work that was preferred by some employees and not others. As a result, everyone peacefully self-selected into their preferred employment relationships. Companies got the type of workforce they wanted and workers chose the type of environment they wanted. It was great. Today, as some companies are…

The market is really difficult right now, most people don’t have the option to just find a remote work company. A significant amount of people who were laid off can’t find any company right now

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#907

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 2:17 AM UTC

throwaway5959 wrote: post #221

paulddraper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just...weird advice. "Honey, playing WoW 12 hours a day is a dealbreaker for me." "You must enter your information into our new HR system."

It just reads like someone who hasn’t really had to compromise much in their lives.

Or someone who compromised too much in their lives.

I think the bigger point is that corporations don't value "you" (royal "you") and these days are becoming a lot more blatant about it. Any ultimatim made by someone with power over you isn't a good one to take long term.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#908

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 2:21 AM UTC

MavropaliasG wrote: post #603

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

What about the ultimatum we were given 2 years ago on COVID vaccines from our employers?

If you felt that strongly against vaccines, sure. The same rule applies. You have a bad culture fit and need to find a place better fitting for you.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#909

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 2:33 AM UTC

runako wrote: post #639

RandomLensman wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You describe what sounds like slow moving places. When rapid reactions are required then even just being able to hear commotion a few rows of seats away can be quite valuable. Doesn't mean people cannot write questions well, but sometimes forcing attention now matters.

I'm not saying people shouldn't go to the office. I'm just saying there are a number of downsides to encouraging walking over to someone's desk to ask a question as a primary mode of knowledge exchange. These downsides have been enumerated at length in The Discourse. On the other side of the ledge is mostly "qualitative" arguments lacking in specifics. The main thing is there are real trade-offs for the staff and org…

>there are real trade-offs for the staff and organization, and those tend to get overlooked in favor of lifestyle or sunk RE cost arguments.

Employees are given some power and time back for the first time in decades after the opposite relationship ended up with being overworked, underpaid, and unappreciated as they are dropped at a moment's notice. So yea, I'm not surprised people aren't sympathizing for the companies who boasted about making record profits over the pandemic and suddenly they need to "downsize". burning decades of trust and goodwill has consequences.

Also, extremes rarely help. I'm not a manager, so even in office there are only people on my immediate team or a specific person or 2 I am working directly with on another team that I would do that with. When it is expected and we have the same tasks in mind. Even then it's better to get stuff in writing where possible so I'd rather send a message, even if it's just so I can give them 10-15 minutes to think over before I walk to them.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#910

Post by ckbishop » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 1:23 PM UTC

olah_1 wrote: post #893

ckbishop wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I just got hired on somewhere using this criteria, and I leave behind a remote-only position that I excelled in for the past four years. And I excelled in several more remote-only positions before that one. I don't have a degree or any certifications either, due to the same disability that prevents me from going into an office. It is an employers' market and the employers that create arbitrary barriers…

> I don't have a degree or any certifications either, due to the same disability that prevents me from going into an office. What experience do you have that is so in demand? Or is the disability attractive to employers because of DEI reasons?

I've wondered about the DEI thing, but there's no way to know really. Nobody is going to tell me if that was considered. I suspect not, though.

I find that specific experience doesn't really matter because every job I've gotten has been a complete reset stack wise.

I have a lot of varied experience, but I think what sets me apart is that tech is actually fun for me. My work/life balance naturally tilts towards work. I'm not just looking to climb a ladder, get more money, or protect my job by making myself irreplaceable. By that, I mean that I document everything I do like I'm going to die tomorrow, and like I care about the DX of whomever takes over my role.

I also don't care if I look dumb. I ask dumb questions and I don't try to hide that I'm human. I've done this my entire life, and it's really paid off. I learn more quickly than my peers most of the time, and this is exactly why -- I lean into the impostor syndrome and own it.