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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#901

Post by pbreit »

siscia wrote: post #426

We are all talking about economics but the whole deal is way more noble than mere money. No European ever has never think "woow this shinny $consumer_object is been produced inside the EU so I don't get to pay the import tax" but every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website and thought "for 30€ I guess this weekend I will be in London/Paris/Berlin/Madrid/Rome". The w…

Considering RyanAir currently flies to non-EU countries, what makes you think that would be impaired in any way?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#902

Post by y04nn »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

To be faire the UK never totally adhered to the EU, they didn't adopt the euro, they are not part of the Schengen Area and they were against a lot of decisions and slowed the the EU contruction. I see this break-up as an opportunity for the EU to grow faster without the UK slowing it down and with 2 leaders at its head (France and Germany). And anyway, economically speaking, the UK will probably make a treaty with the EU that will be similar to the current situation. The danger is that it gives ideas to quit the EU to other members.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#903

Post by Joeri »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

It's sad, but it's also not a given that this is bad for the EU. The EU today is much too occupied with staying where they are, instead of thinking about where they're going. The leave camp offered a story of future prosperity, making things better than they were before. The remain camp's argument reduced to "things are as good as they can be, and leaving will make it worse". The remain camp's future was definitely bleaker. Maybe this vote can galvanize the EU leaders into thinking about the future, instead of narrowly focusing on maintaining the present.

What the EU needs is a story about its future identity. What should the european values be? How do we bring more of those values to the EU's citizens? In other words: how do we make the EU better for those already in it, instead of just talking about how to preserve the status quo? Unless and until the EU develops a vision for future prosperity, it will keep facing "no" votes from its citizens. People want to believe their children will be better off than themselves, and they'll vote for anyone who promises them that. Who can blame them?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#904

Post by adamsea »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

Europe's shared enemy, if you accept the concept, was the double-whammy of being ground zero for two world wars.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#905

Post by logfromblammo »

JPKab wrote: post #813
notacoward wrote: post #766

That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history. * The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external…

THIS: 100% this. "* Shared culture, language, religion? Language, mostly. The Puritans in New England didn't really have much to say to the Quakers in Philadelphia, and both had even less in common with the not-particularly-religious folks down in Virginia. Yes, I guess they all were (or at least professed to be) Christians, but that's not too different than Europe today." Let me expound upon this further: The Purita…

Thanks to that Broadway musical, I now have to constantly remind my kid that Alexander Hamilton was, in fact, a Federalist, mercantilist, and central banker--all three synonymous with "jerk". He was the sort of politician that had not just a punchable face, but a murderable one, and Burr was just the man who broke first.

However, without the Federalists, the US would likely be more fragmented than it is now, with its 5-12 (depending on who you ask) disparate regional cultures.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#906

Post by restalis »

return0 wrote: post #558
beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU That's not the only reason. UK is taking advantage of its position as a global financial hub in the EU. It's in the EUs interest to make the UK less attractive for foreign investment.

"UK is taking advantage of its position as a global financial hub in the EU."

I imagine EU courting Switzerland for assuming this role from now on.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#907

Post by elementalest »

dangjc wrote: post #95

It's amazing that such deep constitutional change will be achieved with such a slim majority. 48% of British people will be ejected out of the EU essentially against their will. The UK has always embraced first past the post voting, but it really shows here how it creates very discontinuous inflection points.

It amazes me that such a vote was not compulsory. About 28% (~13m voters) didn't care enough to vote. I suspect that a large majority would have voted to stay if they had to choose. This would likely have resulted in the UK staying in the EU.

IMHO, a change from the norm should require a greater majority (60% majority) if the vote is not compulsory.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#908

Post by balls187 »

herbst wrote: post #655
rdtsc wrote: post #200

Being selfish here, wonder how this affects US. Even though on the surface EU and UK are alies and trade partners, it is not all black and white. I believe US will benefit because they will be able to play UK against EU and vice-versa to gain somehow. Say if EU doesn't allow import of US chicken they can go and try to persuade UK to not allow some import from EU in exchange for some other favor and so on. Also, I wou…

Afaik the US barely exports to europe (especially your example sounded odd to me, i never saw american food on the shelf except cookies). I dont think it will affect the US a lot.

This is incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_pa...

The EU is the largest trade partner of the US.

And when ordered by US Exports, the EU is the 2nd largest trade partner after Canada.

I suspect the problem you saw was related to American Brands (for food) vs the actual company behind the food. Many foods are bottled/packaged in local plants, and/or resold under local brands.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#909

Post by Chromozon »

This is what happens when major decisions can be determined a simple majority vote. What does 52 to 48 mean? It means UNDECIDED. Half the country feels one way, and the other half feels the other way. For a change this large, it should require at least a 60/40 vote. If the population is undecided, why on earth would you suddenly stop what you have been doing for the last 50 years (which has worked out fine) and go down a different path? There needs to be much more of a push in the other direction.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#910

Post by randomsearch »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

> The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together.

Yes it did, that enemy was "world war".

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