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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#651

Post by Kurtz79 »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Agreed.

As an aside, for me this is a sterling example of the dangers of "direct democracy", that many see as the solution of all evils that plague the political process.

The majority of UK lawmakers (democratically elected by the same people that voted the referendum) were in favor of staying in the Union: even a large number with conservative and traditionalist background (including the PM).

Yet the future of the UK (and EU) was decided by people (on both sides) that cannot possibly have an idea of what the implications of this decision will be, and that can be easily swayed my media and influenced by emotions.

Representative democracy has its faults and inefficiencies, but if the alternative is to have gut-reaction votes and petty nationalism decide the future of a country, count me out.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#652

Post by lgieron »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

> And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language

Isn't the US a conglomerate of former English, French and Spanish colonies?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#653

Post by siscia »

beejiu wrote: post #634
siscia wrote: post #426

We are all talking about economics but the whole deal is way more noble than mere money. No European ever has never think "woow this shinny $consumer_object is been produced inside the EU so I don't get to pay the import tax" but every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website and thought "for 30€ I guess this weekend I will be in London/Paris/Berlin/Madrid/Rome". The w…

I think you'll be surprised how many people spend their time traveling around Europe having fun, being lazy, drinking beer and having sex. I mean, it sounds idyllic, but how many people -- particularly working classes -- do that? I don't buy the idea that people only travel into Europe because of the EU. Freedom to travel is really freedom to work.

Sure, of course... But simply having the possibilities is nice...

Anyway for youngish people, at least in my friend circle, is pretty common.

Yesterday I was having dinner with an English friend, two weeks ago I spend a week in Berlin, pretty much every year we have a family trip somewhere in Europe.

Sure, I am young, with a lot of energy and money are not a huge concern right now; but most of my friends are in my same condition.

And actually I am a pretty cheap folk and I don't spend much money...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#654

Post by darkr »

tiatia wrote: post #631
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

It is good news for Europe (and bad news for the UK). You don't have to be a fan of the bureaucratic EU but leaving was madness. They have now all the disadvantages and no advantage. The UK will likely have to pay MORE to the EU than before if they want to keep access to the EU market (see Norway who pays more per head already while not being a EU member). "The City" will lose big time: https://www.bloomberg.com/view…

> Would be insane if Scotland and Northern Ireland now want to leave the UK.

One of the larger vote swingers for Scotland staying part of the UK was that they would have had to renegotiate their membership with the EU from a weak position. Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain in the EU referendum last night, so arguably the SNP now have a valid mandate to hold another Scottish referendum on membership of the UK.

It's like they had a housemate they didn't really like, but who took them to all of the cool parties. Now they won't even get to go to the parties anymore, and I don't blame them for wanting to move out.

Arguably London is larger both in population and economy than Scotland and Wales combined, and also overwhelmingly voted remain. If there is a referendum on whether London should leave England, I know which way I'm voting..

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#655

Post by herbst »

rdtsc wrote: post #200

Being selfish here, wonder how this affects US. Even though on the surface EU and UK are alies and trade partners, it is not all black and white. I believe US will benefit because they will be able to play UK against EU and vice-versa to gain somehow. Say if EU doesn't allow import of US chicken they can go and try to persuade UK to not allow some import from EU in exchange for some other favor and so on. Also, I wou…

Afaik the US barely exports to europe (especially your example sounded odd to me, i never saw american food on the shelf except cookies). I dont think it will affect the US a lot.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#656

Post by return0 »

siliconviking wrote: post #649
return0 wrote: post #632

It could prove to be a bad, really bad decision for the UK. It could probably be a great gift to those who despise the UK in the EU. The british overestimate the power of their economy at this moment i believe. - They had the unique privilege of a strong, international financial sector within the EU, while simultaneously having their own monetary policy. This attracted foreign capital, and this capital will feel less…

"Unfortunately, whatever the motives, in democracies decisions are respected." Do you actually lament the fact that democracies respect the choice of their peoples?

No, i did not express any feelings towards that fact, and it's none of your business to quiz me about it anyway. Democratic decisions are not always optimal though.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#657

Post by larard »

anothermouse wrote: post #640

For those of you outside the UK, please realise that this was not a xenophobic vote. Just because there were racist scum in the crowd voting brexit, doesn't mean all brexit supporters are likewise. There are many reasons why people voted to leave but the journalism covering this seemed to only be able to cover the sensationalist parts of the debate in the most childish fashion. This needed a serious discussion amongs…

The quality of discourse was terrible.

Why did the leave camp stick to the 350 million argument after it had been so firmly skewered. There were many other reasons to vote leave that could have been discussed instead.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#658

Post by UVB-76 »

jacquesm wrote: post #472

Surprising that a simple majority is enough to effect such a massive change, one would expect that a supermajority would be required to change the status quo. It's a sad day for the UK's younger generation who voted overwhelmingly to stay, the older generation, who will depend for their bread and butter on the younger ones has just made their life a lot harder. Everybody that's gleefully celebrating will be in an exc…

To play devil's advocate:

1. Falling house prices (George Osborne estimated 18%, helped by rising interest rates) will help many, many young people get on the housing ladder. You can look at this as a massive redistribution of wealth from old to young;

2. Although full of optimism while studying at university, many UK graduates have been crowded out of the job market by more experienced EU migrants, coming from countries with far worse unemployment rates.

3. Young people didn't have much invested in the UK, and in many ways had the least to lose.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#659

Post by FuNe »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

EU was never about the people. It was and is all about banks and corporations. When they had enough for themselves and to provide enough scrapes for people to keep everyone happy all seemed well. The moment they started bailing in states to save banks and corporations (selling this as German 'austerity' fiscal policy) it all started cracking. So - to more and more 'Europeans' EU means a never ending future of joblessness and 'austerity' imposed on them by fat cats in Brussels, Berlin, Frankfurt, Paris, etc. It is unfortunate that extreme right wings and nazis are capitalizing on this frustration but somebody eventually would.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#660

Post by jliptzin »

I am from the US visiting Germany for the last couple of weeks. You guys need to cool it with the football. Parading in the streets wearing the German flag after winning a game vs Poland, harassing someone wearing a polish flag cap. Really? Combine that with an EU breakdown and you guys are going to start WW3.
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