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Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

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Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#91

Post by kendallpark »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59
kendallpark wrote: post #34

It's fine to teach creationism... just not in a science class. What the majority of the creation supporters don't get is that creationism isn't a science, it's a philosophy. There's nothing constructive or tangible about the theory. You can't test it in a lab, you can't observe it in nature--unless you think irreducible complexity (aka "we don't understand how this could come about, therefore it must be divinely crea…

Creationism isn't even a philosophy. Its a cynical attempt to inject religion into the classroom by masquerading as another subject. Its not 'fine to teach'; its deliberate quackery that should be rejected.

No, it is fine to teach and it IS a philosophy. Objectivism is a BS philosophy, but we still teach it.

Freudian psychology is a bunch of unsubstantiated BS, but there are still entire classes devoted to it. There are still people that specialize in it.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#92

Post by JoeAltmaier »

kendallpark wrote: post #91
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creationism isn't even a philosophy. Its a cynical attempt to inject religion into the classroom by masquerading as another subject. Its not 'fine to teach'; its deliberate quackery that should be rejected.

No, it is fine to teach and it IS a philosophy. Objectivism is a BS philosophy, but we still teach it. Freudian psychology is a bunch of unsubstantiated BS, but there are still entire classes devoted to it. There are still people that specialize in it.

It is not a serious philosophy - it was constructed cynically with the goal of fooling people. An entirely different class of thing that those others.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#94

Post by knodi123 »

Oletros wrote: post #67
gizi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it needs no proof, it is not science either, and that was exactly the point I was making.

You don't know much about evolution, it seems

Go look up what kind of people use the word "evolutionism" and you might not be surprised.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#95

Post by 13years »

mikeash wrote: post #88
13years wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what I stated. Banning is saying that we can't discuss why 2+2 is not 5, because that subject is banned. If a lot of people come often come to a wrong conclusion, you should be able to teach and discuss why that happens. Banning subjects is running away from debate and discussion. It fails to teach logical analysis and investigation.

If any of my math classes had wasted a bunch of time on, "While we know that 2+2=4, there are a bunch of people who believe that 2+2=5, here's why they're wrong," I would have been rather annoyed. The space of things that are wrong is too vast to explore thoroughly. Stick to what's right.

I didn't expect anyone to take the example as a literal. The example was only a concept in response to the original poster who used it as a concept prop for their argument.

"Stick to what's right" lol, that's the point. Who decides what is right? The government? The teachers? Education should be more about how to learn and how to discover truth, not about force feeding what some bureaucrat thinks is right or wrong or important. The greatest period of geniuses per capita in history were during time of when the socratic method was used for teaching.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#96

Post by olavk »

13years wrote: post #95
mikeash wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any of my math classes had wasted a bunch of time on, "While we know that 2+2=4, there are a bunch of people who believe that 2+2=5, here's why they're wrong," I would have been rather annoyed. The space of things that are wrong is too vast to explore thoroughly. Stick to what's right.

I didn't expect anyone to take the example as a literal. The example was only a concept in response to the original poster who used it as a concept prop for their argument. "Stick to what's right" lol, that's the point. Who decides what is right? The government? The teachers? Education should be more about how to learn and how to discover truth, not about force feeding what some bureaucrat thinks is right or wrong or…

Off topic I know, but what time is you talking about with "genius per capita"? I wonder how this have been measured.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#97

Post by olavk »

gizi wrote: post #58
janvidar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie? Schools are a social(ist) institution put in place by the goverment to ensure people have an equal access to knowledge - a foundation. Schools also have to follow a certain curriculum which would give this foundation. A school cannot simply choose to not teach reading or writing, or teach that the earth is flat because they…

"Why is it bothersome that the goverment decides that it is illegal for schools to teach a lie?" Creationism is not a lie. It is just not science. But then again, the same holds true for evolutionism, which is also not a lie. It is just also not science.

What is "evolutionism"? I've never heard that word before.

Ah, Wikipedia has the answer: "In the creation-evolution controversy, creationists often call those who accept the validity of the modern evolutionary synthesis "evolutionists" and the theory itself as "evolutionism." Some creationists and creationist organizations, such as the Institute of Creation Research, use these terms in an effort to make it appear that evolutionary biology is a form of secular religion.[8][9]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionism

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#98

Post by olavk »

13years wrote: post #79
olavk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that line of reasoning schools should no teach anything at all. 2+2=5 is just as valid math as 2+2=4, anything else would be allowing the government to hide the truth!

That is not what I stated. Banning is saying that we can't discuss why 2+2 is not 5, because that subject is banned. If a lot of people come often come to a wrong conclusion, you should be able to teach and discuss why that happens. Banning subjects is running away from debate and discussion. It fails to teach logical analysis and investigation.

Who is talking about banning subjects? It is just a question of keeping science in science classes, and the study of religious ideas in classes about the study of religions ideas. For example the change from the geocentric to a heliocentric model and the Galileo controversy are important parts of the history of ideas and should be studied as such. But obviously the Ptolemaic model should not be thought in astronomy classes as if it was valid science.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#99

Post by olavk »

gizi wrote: post #72
zimpenfish wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Field experiments are so named in order to draw a contrast with laboratory experiments, which enforce scientific control by testing a hypothesis in the artificial and highly controlled setting of a laboratory. Often used in the social sciences, and especially in economic analyses of education and health interventions, field experiments have the advantage that outcomes are observed in a natural setting rather than i…

It sounds too much like you are requesting an exemption from the governing anti-alchemy policy that you would like to see suspended -- as a matter of exception -- in order to let through the gates some questionable things that we should not qualify as science. Just staring at things during a 'field experiment' will never be science. You must modify them, and we should be able to repeat your modifications. So, no than…

Not sure what you are getting at, field observations are an important part of many sciences like biology, geology, meteorology etc. Just as an example, if you want to study animal behavior it is much more valid to study it in the natural habitat than in an artificially created environment. Sure, lab experiments area also used in these sciences, but they are really complementary to the field observations.

In any case, your comment about evolving iguanas into cats and dogs indicate that you have a strange idea about about how evolution works. If a bad teacher gave you some wrong ideas then I can understand you skepticism. But you should probably try to understand evolution first before trying to criticize the theory as unscientific.

Re: Creationism Banned from Science Classes by Scottish Government

#100

Post by 13years »

olavk wrote: post #96
13years wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't expect anyone to take the example as a literal. The example was only a concept in response to the original poster who used it as a concept prop for their argument. "Stick to what's right" lol, that's the point. Who decides what is right? The government? The teachers? Education should be more about how to learn and how to discover truth, not about force feeding what some bureaucrat thinks is right or wrong or…

Off topic I know, but what time is you talking about with "genius per capita"? I wonder how this have been measured.

So here are a couple of references. This one makes the assertion, but doesn't describe how it was derived. http://www.winwenger.com/socmeth3.htm

However, this one does describe how probably such an estimate has been derived and used. http://scientific-child-prodigy.blogspot.com/2007/09/mysteri...

And as an additional FYI. Some more modern related research. http://www.wired.com/2013/10/free-thinkers/

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