How to Negotiate a Job Offer • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#91

Post by rschmitty » Thu, May 30, 2013, 10:04 AM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #74

run4yourlives wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write t…

If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. If this is the type of person you're extending an offer to, it's no wonder you don't care if you lose them. You're absolutely right - if you're not being selective in your hiring, you're not going to mind overly much if you lose a candidate. On the other hand, why would anyone…

Ironic his username is run4yourlives, which is exactly what anyone talented should do

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#92

Post by chollida1 » Thu, May 30, 2013, 10:30 AM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #43

chollida1 wrote: post #2

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I neg…

This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional rai…

Really, I've never given someone a salary bump just because they asked and then shut up. That's a horrible way for a business to run.

I'll offer a competitive salaray that fits within my companies budget and salary framework. If an employee really wants more then the burden is on them to show that they've got a better BATNA.

I do agree with you that asking never hurts, but if a company caves just because you ask it's a very telling sign that whoever you talked to doesn't really know how to negotiate.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#93

Post by bconway » Thu, May 30, 2013, 12:20 PM UTC

byoung2 wrote: post #39

antjanus wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask for a higher pay based on an offer from another company, you're already screwing yourself over. Your current job MAY accept your pay increase but if they do, there's already a break in trust. And you're setting yourself up for being replaced. You may as well take that new offer right now. Better option is to negotiate based on skills, experience, responsibilities, and other factors.

You may as well take that new offer right now. That has been my strategy 4 times in the last 6 years. You can get a much bigger raise if you switch companies than if you stay and wait for a raise. If I had stayed at my first programming job, even with generous 10% raises every 12-18 months, my salary would only have increased by 50-70%. Instead, by switching jobs, I was able to get 20-35% raises each time, and now my…

Beware that this can come back to bite you. If I look at someone's LinkedIn profile and see a slew of jobs listed in months, not years, their resume is going in the (metaphoric) trash. I need to get at least 2 years out of people, preferably 3 (on the low end).

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#94

Post by Maert » Thu, May 30, 2013, 2:50 PM UTC

StockOptionCnsl wrote: post #68

lumens wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signing bonuses are fairly common. It's not a number that is well-arrived at by picking at random. The figure should be based on a calculated value exchange: ie,"I'm not fully vested at my current company, and will be giving up $5k worth of stock options if I leave. I'd like to have a $5k cash signing bonus as part of any new offer I'd take to offset that."

Well said. It's all about finding some "reason" to have a bonus -- something given up to take the position. Like someone said above, it doesn't have to be a great reason. Just a reason.

How common is this in Europe? For example, is relocating to another country something that might be a good reason for asking a signing bonus? How do companies see this?

Note I'm interested in experiences from Europe, I think that there's lots of hiring "cultural" differences between the continents...

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#95

Post by bengrunfeld » Thu, May 30, 2013, 4:49 PM UTC

StockOptionCnsl wrote: post #72

bengrunfeld wrote: post #50

My method is to do a full analysis of their company, and then make a very nicely formatted doc listing everything that I thought was bad, and a full explanation of how I would improve it if I were hired there. Essentially, by using this technique, you've created a job for yourself, and given yourself value before you've even started there. Then, when it comes to salary negotiation, you choose the highest available fi…

This seems very sassy. But if you can pull it off ...

You have to do it respectfully, but why hire someone who can't prove their worth. And it would have been funnier if you'd written "SaaSy" ;)

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#96

Post by run4yourlives » Thu, May 30, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #74

run4yourlives wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write t…

If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. If this is the type of person you're extending an offer to, it's no wonder you don't care if you lose them. You're absolutely right - if you're not being selective in your hiring, you're not going to mind overly much if you lose a candidate. On the other hand, why would anyone…

This is the position of 99% of employers.

Employers (as one would no doubt discover if you looked outside of the echo chamber) are as practical as they are selective.

On the other hand, why would anyone want to work for a company that's not selective in their hiring?

Limiting yourself to the top .25% of available employees is a rather stupid way to do business. Being flexible does not mean you are open to everyone, just that you are will to accept, say, the top 5% of employees.

if the company won't negotiate your offer, that probably indicates they're full of B-players and you're dodging a bullet.

The company IS negotiating. You are the one who isn't. Negotiation, by definition, is not the act of simply stating your demands as an ultimatum. If you figure this is a practical way to live life, by all means, continue down this path.

I'm pretty confident in saying though that after 15 years in business with more negotiations of all sorts than I can count in my past, whenever I've come across a person with your view point, I simply walk. Dealing with someone that can't find win-win is, in 100% of cases, more trouble than they can ever be worth. (As an aside, you see this a lot more with B2B deals than you do with hiring. Most people applying for work are a little more reasonable to simply demand a salary. The only time you normally see this is if the person in question is being poached/recruited, which is a different equation)

Getting 100% of what you initially want is a great goal and a reason to celebrate. Expecting this outcome all of the time is a recipe for failure.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#97

Post by wikwocket » Thu, May 30, 2013, 5:07 PM UTC

GavinB wrote: post #21

gangst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your script, you have: > You: This is a really great offer because [a sentence or two about why you want to work for them.]. But I was really looking for a little higher compensation. > Then, this is the most important part: they need to speak next. You have to be silent until they respond. They will give you one of three responses: At which point you list the three responses. But the most common (in my experience…

I'd say name a number or range 15-25% above the offer. Or even just "I was hoping for 15-20% more." Thanks, I'll add this. The point is just to ask for what you want. Often people will give it to you just for asking. It took me a long time to figure this out!

Good addition to a great writeup, but you might want to revise the surrounding text. A lot of it still refers to there being just 3 options.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#98

Post by run4yourlives » Thu, May 30, 2013, 5:12 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #89

run4yourlives wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You really don't need to have another job offer or a current job to negotiate. No, but if I know that you don't have another option, I'm not going to be as willing to give up more. A known secondary option puts pressure (sometimes, tremendous) on your negotiating partner. The absence of such an option does not. That's what the article is saying.

> No, but if I know that you don't have another option, I'm not going to be as willing to give up more. That doesn't really make sense. The candidate has at least this much in their favor: 1. A recruiter has had probably 2-3 phone calls with them, a technical person (or two) has done a phone screen, and they've taken up the time of, say, 4-6 people for in-person interviews. The company has already spent a not-insigni…

The company has already spent a not-insignificant amount of time (aka money) evaluating this person, and losing them over a (reasonable) salary increase would be foolish.

Any company worth anything has an a, b, and c candidate (plus, often the option to wait) already in their pocket. While what you say is true, the assumption that your demands are "reasonable" is one you simply cannot make. Only the other party can define that. The cost of hiring is not assigned to you, it is a sunk cost that the company will absorb regardless of who they hire. It's pretty insignificant to keep an already posted position open.

Assuming the candidate is great for the position, but the only sticking point is salary, why would the company go back to square 1 to save a little money?

Budgets. Existing pay scales. Their evaluation of your value. There are numerous reasons. The idea is that you want to work there too, for the most they are willing to pay. That means pushing to the limit but not going past it. The easiest way to do this is to force their hand.

One of the best ways to force their hand is to generate a call to action that is time-based. It's a pretty basic marketing principle that I'm really surprised a lot of people don't seem to understand. This is just like saying "Act fast, quantities are limited!"

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#99

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, May 30, 2013, 6:51 PM UTC

carmaa wrote: post #46

GavinB wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say name a number or range 15-25% above the offer. Or even just "I was hoping for 15-20% more." Thanks, I'll add this. The point is just to ask for what you want. Often people will give it to you just for asking. It took me a long time to figure this out!

Never name a range. Ask for 15, 20 or 25% more, based on what you want. If someone comes to me asking for 15-20% more, I'm going to offer them something below the low end of the range. You're essentially giving away 5% for free.

Always name a range. Bound it on the low end by your minimum. Otherwise you're essentially removing their ability to give you n% for free.

In a few cases, I've seen offers come back right in the middle of the range, when I was expecting the bottom. Free money!

Ideally, have 2 offers that are aware of each other and name the range. They won't both come back with the bottom number. At least, not in this market. They've wasted a ton of time and need to hire someone, so they're going to make their offer count. Internal recruiters have performance-based metrics too, and while I'm sure getting a better deal on a hire looks good, failing to fill positions is not good.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#100

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, May 30, 2013, 6:59 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #85

jcomis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they put the initial number on you? As in, they ask what you are expecting?

Actually, you always want to provide your own numbers first. That's what they call `controlling the document' in the legal profession, and `anchoring' in Psychology.

It's more common advice to never name the first price.

I'm no expert negotiator but personally I think this depends on the situation. In more than one case I've underestimated my worth and received more than I would have though I could get away with asking for. Once they name their price, I know it's their lower bound, so I'm comfortable asking for even more.

I think negotiating a salary has different dynamics than negotiating a sale. For a sale, I would probably agree with the anchoring tactic.