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How to Negotiate a Job Offer

blog.upstart.com

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Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#71

Post by StockOptionCnsl »

csbowe wrote: post #22
jtbigwoo wrote: post #12

One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.

There is really no way of knowing how much those options are worth without knowing the size of the pool and valuation of the company, anyhow. I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Lots of things, namely reverse splits, before an exit can greatly affect the value of those shares!

Right! This falls under "Run the Numbers" in the Upstart Blog Post. It is not possible to compare an offer of equity without the info you described and some thoughtful attention to how YOU value that equity.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#72

Post by StockOptionCnsl »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #50

My method is to do a full analysis of their company, and then make a very nicely formatted doc listing everything that I thought was bad, and a full explanation of how I would improve it if I were hired there. Essentially, by using this technique, you've created a job for yourself, and given yourself value before you've even started there. Then, when it comes to salary negotiation, you choose the highest available fi…

This seems very sassy. But if you can pull it off ...

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#73

Post by MakeUsersWant »

jtbigwoo wrote: post #12

One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.

Some companies fire people right before the shares vest. Then they really are worth $0.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#74

Post by gyardley »

run4yourlives wrote: post #61
gyardley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional rai…

No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write t…

If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool.

If this is the type of person you're extending an offer to, it's no wonder you don't care if you lose them. You're absolutely right - if you're not being selective in your hiring, you're not going to mind overly much if you lose a candidate.

On the other hand, why would anyone want to work for a company that's not selective in their hiring? Now that I think about it - if the company won't negotiate your offer, that probably indicates they're full of B-players and you're dodging a bullet.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#75

Post by pnathan »

halacsy wrote: post #20

i think article is just wrong as it is. Maybe because I'm on the other side hiring engineers. But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. The first part is very personal. People having mortgage an…

> But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company.

Ahahaha, oh brother.

You need to care about how much I'd make at another company, because if you dramatically underpay me, I'm walking. I'm ok with fuzzy variance - a few K/yr isn't making or breaking me. But if you short me and give me Unwillingness to negotiate is a red flag: it signals you can't work with me, are inflexible, and are not interested in accommodating me if something comes up.

So no. Negotiate with me and offer at least 90% of market value. Or I will walk - either I'll join and quit as soon as I get another job, or I'll keep searching. Neither are good outcomes for you.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#76

Post by gyardley »

carmaa wrote: post #49
gyardley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional rai…

I feel that we may be ignoring the psychological aspects of having a strong BATNA here. It's easy to say that you should just "ask for a better offer", but it is waay easier to actually do that when you know how much you are worth to another employer. Some people may be able to pull off something like what you describe, but all research I've read on negotiating indicate that knowing your BATNA and having a strong one…

Yes, a big part of negotiation is knowing what you should do and how you should react despite your internal feelings about your situation. I know I've looked utterly disgusted at offers that were already making me giddy on the inside.

It's always nice to have multiple offers to choose from, but sometimes you're just not in that situation. When that happens you can still master your own psychology, keep your feelings to yourself, and negotiate with confidence.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#77

Post by vonmoltke »

johnrob wrote: post #5
chollida1 wrote: post #2

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I neg…

I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.

> I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach.

That is why they combine it with convincing their employees that they should be lucky to have their job. My former employer got a lot of mileage out of that. It was made easier because some of the people there were lucky to have a job (based on competence or specialty).

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#78

Post by pmorici »

Salary negotiation really dampens my enthusiasm for potential employers. Maybe it's just the game and I'm being unreasonable but getting a low ball offer makes me question what kind of place a company would be to work at.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#80

Post by aaronbrethorst »

csbowe wrote: post #22
jtbigwoo wrote: post #12

One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.

There is really no way of knowing how much those options are worth without knowing the size of the pool and valuation of the company, anyhow. I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Lots of things, namely reverse splits, before an exit can greatly affect the value of those shares!

    I treat these as monopoly money unless
    I actually know what percent of the
    company I'm being given.
Knowing your percentage doesn't make it any less monopoly money. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5771831
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