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Men In Tech

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Re: Men In Tech

#91

Post by icebraining »

wpietri wrote: post #38
sigmaxipi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. >When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. Why is this fear a bad thing for women? Interesting fact: men are more likely to be victims of violent crime[1] and this has been pretty much true throughout history[2] though it…

This is excellent advice -- for women roaming free on our ancestral savanna. For those of us, though, who are collaborating on this whole civilization thing, high levels of fear are bad. Especially well-justified fears that keep people from participating fully in society.

Doesn't the satistics prove the fear is not well-justified? Unfortunately, women should fear men they know more than strangers.

Re: Men In Tech

#92

Post by oh_sigh »

robconery wrote: post #34
knowtheory wrote: post #6

Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstan…

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

What world do you live in where people make jokes about PMS to coworkers?

Honestly, in my lifetime, I have heard maybe hundreds of jokes about PMS from women, and maybe 2 from men.

Re: Men In Tech

#93

Post by knowtheory »

nowarninglabel wrote: post #7

I've been appreciating all the articles on HN calling out sexism in the [tech] workplace. It's actually made me change my own behavior at work, though I've been told I never offended anyone, I've started doing things like never saying "that's what she said" as well as chastising co-workers when they say it. It would be nice if there were something to say instead, that could still add a lightness and moment of comedy…

I've been trying to figure out whether turnaround is fair play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvujEmyiPQ

Re: Men In Tech

#95

Post by wpietri »

s_baby wrote: post #53
wpietri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not persuaded. I know a number of socially inept people. Some of them are perfectly pleasant, just hopelessly awkward. Others are jerks to everyone. But some are sexist jerks. And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Women were oppressed for millennia. Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates unt…

>I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html This guide makes zero rational arguments for why those examples are derailment... It's completely rhetorical. Intellectually, it's app…

Derailment is a purely rhetorical technique, so I'm not seeing the problem.

I agree that patriarchy is bad for pretty much everybody. But the rhetorical effect of "but what about the time a woman was mean to meeeee" isn't to raise awareness of power dynamics so that people see the real issue as patriarchy or kyriarchy and find action even more urgent. It's to devalue the given examples of sexist behavior so that the privileged person can avoid confronting their privilege.

Re: Men In Tech

#96

Post by TheSOB88 »

JanezStupar wrote: post #69
TheSOB88 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge…

You are obviously not an attractive male. I've had to put up with quite a lot from women of all kinds and I'm not even that attractive. I'm not going to say more, since I will get called a pussy and a bitch. But lets please stop pretending that only men are perverts and that all sexual discrimination and indecent behavior towards other people comes from men.

You obviously are a jerk. But sadly that's also normal amongst our CS population.

Re: Men In Tech

#97

Post by wpietri »

icebraining wrote: post #91
wpietri wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is excellent advice -- for women roaming free on our ancestral savanna. For those of us, though, who are collaborating on this whole civilization thing, high levels of fear are bad. Especially well-justified fears that keep people from participating fully in society.

Doesn't the satistics prove the fear is not well-justified? Unfortunately, women should fear men they know more than strangers.

Who said that the fear isn't justified?

The problem being pointed out is exactly that the fear is justified. It is fucked up beyond belief that half of our population has, as the parent post puts it, "a constant and unending fear of sexual assault."

Re: Men In Tech

#98

Post by georgieporgie »

wpietri wrote: post #44
georgieporgie wrote: post #3

I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills. I've seen appalling things toward women and men alike from young, socially inept Bay Area tech males. Also, for what it's worth, I've received a lot of crap from women over the course of my working life. In college, I worked in a deli where I was the only male. There was outright sexual harassment, and regular dismissal of me solely because I…

I'm not persuaded. I know a number of socially inept people. Some of them are perfectly pleasant, just hopelessly awkward. Others are jerks to everyone. But some are sexist jerks. And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Women were oppressed for millennia. Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates unt…

And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks.

Okay. I maintain that in the tech community, it's horrible social skills that's driving the majority of what appears to be gender bias, sexual harassment, etc. I also maintain that focusing on developing better social skills, empathy, etc. will do far, far more to solve the problem than simply pointing out over and over again the sex-related symptoms.

I just don't buy the thesis that sexism is now suddenly extinct

Who said anything of the sort? Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't like what you're attempting to project onto me.

jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!"

I made no attempt whatsoever to derail anything. I was providing examples, from the opposite side of the gender fence, of how I saw social ineptitude causing apparent gender bias.

Re: Men In Tech

#99

Post by davidtanner »

robconery wrote: post #34
knowtheory wrote: post #6

Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstan…

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

I'll stop looking at womens' chests when they stop looking at men's arms, legs, groin and ass. That said, both men and women can look in appropriate glancing ways or inappropriate staring ways.

Re: Men In Tech

#100

Post by koeselitz »

tomp wrote: post #42
robconery wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experie…

So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?

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