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While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

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Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#91

Post by lparry »

cooldeal wrote: post #31
rbarooah wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think that Samsung for example, has less responsibility for its worker's conditions than Apple?

Equal responsibility but lesser blame. It's like slagging on a poor man for eating unhealthy food on the dollar menu at McDonalds. That man has an excuse, he doesn't have the money to shop for organic food at Whole Foods. Someone already super rich eating the dollar menu just to save a few bucks definitely deserves more blame not for eating healthy. There isn't much money left over after Apple is done sucking the pro…

"Sucking the profit" out of an industry is something that happens when you're undercutting everyone on price, driving prices down and reducing overall profits. Apple products arent exactly known for being cheap, so i think it's a stretch to say they're sucking the profit out of the industry; if anything they're conditioning consumers to pay more for a phone than they otherwise would.

They fact they are able to sell a lot of units at those healthy profit margins while competitors struggle to sell cheaper devices at razor thin profit margins (leading to revenue breakdown chart like you linked to) does not lend to them "sucking the profit out of the phone industry", it's them showing everyone else you dont need to peddle cheap crap because customers are happy to pay more for something that doesnt suck.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#92

Post by [deleted] »

WiseWeasel wrote: post #79
vibrunazo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. Please don't think that. Wasn't my intention. I've followed your posts, you're a very bright person, and I love reading what you have to say. I agree with you that Apple is being target both because it's a big brand and because there's political motivation. I also do agree with you they make great products, I never implied otherwise. I only think "integrity" only beca…

That's going to go straight to his head.

[deleted]

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#93

Post by AlisdairO »

ktizo wrote: post #60
nirvana wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and always have." Do you have a cite for your claim that Apple has never been holding their producers up to a standard of quality, and has been entering into contracts on the SOLE basis of price? Of course you don't, as this is just an ideological statement, already refuted by my pointing out their history of audits and high requiremen…

You are why Hacker News is in decline and why anyone who is capable of argument-- such as myself-- is hesitant to post here I'd hate to see what happens when you aren't being hesitant.

You're talking to someone who was convinced Apple was the sole inventor of multi-touch, abused everyone who claimed otherwise, and then disappeared when definitive counter-proof was provided, without apologising. He's an arrogant fanboy (not a term I use lightly), and he's not worth arguing with.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#94

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

olalonde wrote: post #76

I always find it ironic when Foxconn is criticized for not treating their employees well when the fact is, Foxconn has done more to alleviate poverty in China than any single other company I can think of. I live a few blocks away from the Foxconn factory in Shenzhen and whenever I try to bring up the "poor working conditions at Foxconn" topic with locals, I most often get a blank stare as if I had suggested something…

I think that's an important thing to consider. Whilst working conditions might be 'bad', they may be much better than what they might have otherwise, or better paid.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#95

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

ktizo wrote: post #33
cooldeal wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That $575 number is nonsensical; Well, then maybe Slashdot is wrong too: http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-ear... >"While Apple generates more than $575 in profit for every iOS device, and according to estimates in 2007 Apple earned more than $800 on every iPhone sold through ATT, Horace Dediu reports that Android generated less than $550m in revenues for Google between 2008 and the end of 201…

That '$575 in profit' is, from the context, how much profit they make on average per year from an iOS device, not just the profit margin on the sale price, otherwise the comparisons to android's yearly profit would not make much sense.

Yeah, they get a cut from contracts and also app sales.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#96

Post by lancewiggs »

xenophanes wrote: post #81
lancewiggs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's relatively easy to hide accident stats. It's very difficult to hide fatalities - especially over time. I would be unsurprised at better safety stats than the US. With DuPont as one of several exceptions, the safety culture in the USA is still one of compliance. The mining record is awful versus global large companies. Apple and other customers are able to demand and get certain requirements met. A key part of th…

Lots of jobs are way more dangerous than assembly iPads. How would you die while assembling an iPad? So a variety of US jobs against Foxconn isn't exactly comparing like with like. I think this stat can exonerate Foxconn work as pretty safe even by US standards without condemning the US.

Fair point about comparison with other USA industries. The overriding tone of the overall conversation (not just on HN) is whether Apple et al. are outsourcing to a place with lower standards, including safety. Comparing Foxconn stats to US norms is then a valid approach.

> How would you die while assembling an iPad?

Since you asked - here are some typical risks. Happily these are all mitigable.

Falling from heights while in the store - for parts or for shipping. Hit by a moving light vehicle inside the factory - forklift etc Hit by a light or heavy vehicle outside the factory - e.g. when in loading operations Incorrect handling of hazardous materials resulting in explosion Incorrect handing of molten materials (plastics, metals) Poor guarding on major equipment catching clothes and dragging worker into equipment. Ditto with poor isolation equipment prior to maintenance (machine switched on while someone is inside it) Electrocution due to lack of isolation of electrified equipment before commencing maintenance work Inhalation of fumes and other toxic emissions Crushing by a press or other heavy industrial machine during operation, maintenance or installation Crushed by stacks of inventory (parts, finished product) falling Electrical fire or other sort of fire Food poisoning, collapse of building, any incidents in staff accommodation and so on.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#97

Post by lancewiggs »

Duff wrote: post #44

I find all of this hand-wringing over working conditions to be the biggest pile of bunk that I have ever heard of. The only reason that China is manufacturing just about every consumer product out there is that sending work there allows you to exploit cheap labor, lax environmental regulation, and other regulation found in western countries. So now some westerners who "care" are waxing on about the poor iPhone worker…

This may have been the case in the past, but for Apple and increasingly across many industries China is offering genuine advantages beyond labour cost/conditions, and labour cost/conditions are increasingly approaching those in the west. It's like Japan all over again.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#98

Post by vijayr »

DanBC wrote: post #56
xal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no horse in this race but It's very well known that Apple does indeed pick who bids lowest but: * They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce * They put severe requirements on secrecy * The they put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated All of the above are enforced. Apple has massive teeth. They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offence…

> They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce That's not great for workers, who lose pay if they cannot meet these exacting standards. > They put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated The conditions they demand may be better than most workers get in the target country. That doesn't mean those conditions are actually enforced, nor does it mean they are acceptable. The amount of pr…

That would be a huge sales point for them.

Are you serious? Since when a shopper gives a damn about how his/her product is made? If that is the case, walmart would not be as big and profitable as they are today. No shopper (or very negligible amount of shoppers) cares about any of these. All they care about is low price, coupons, discounts and deals. How else would a company like Groupon could become so big, so quickly?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#99

Post by ktizo »

vijayr wrote: post #98
DanBC wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce That's not great for workers, who lose pay if they cannot meet these exacting standards. > They put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated The conditions they demand may be better than most workers get in the target country. That doesn't mean those conditions are actually enforced, nor does it mean they are acceptable. The amount of pr…

That would be a huge sales point for them. Are you serious? Since when a shopper gives a damn about how his/her product is made? If that is the case, walmart would not be as big and profitable as they are today. No shopper (or very negligible amount of shoppers) cares about any of these. All they care about is low price, coupons, discounts and deals. How else would a company like Groupon could become so big, so quick…

Even Mall-Wart stocks fair-trade products. I don't think they are doing it to be nice.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#100

Post by DanBC »

vijayr wrote: post #98
DanBC wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce That's not great for workers, who lose pay if they cannot meet these exacting standards. > They put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated The conditions they demand may be better than most workers get in the target country. That doesn't mean those conditions are actually enforced, nor does it mean they are acceptable. The amount of pr…

That would be a huge sales point for them. Are you serious? Since when a shopper gives a damn about how his/her product is made? If that is the case, walmart would not be as big and profitable as they are today. No shopper (or very negligible amount of shoppers) cares about any of these. All they care about is low price, coupons, discounts and deals. How else would a company like Groupon could become so big, so quick…

> All they care about is low price, coupons, discounts and deals.

You make a good point. Many users only care about price, and that's why you can buy an ink-jet printer with starter carts for less than the price of replacement full carts.

But with Apple we're not talking about a company that has cheap customers. People are happy to pay a premium for Apple products.

Several things make people happy to spend that money - build quality; nice design; user experience; buying experience. "Ethical manufacture" would be one more thing to add to that list.

(http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/)

Apple already is a member of the FLA -

(http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/think-fair-apple-becomes-...)

The drawback is obvious - they have independent reports sometimes criticising the working practices, and their competitors do not.

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