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While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

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Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#71

Post by untog »

nirvana wrote: post #54
vibrunazo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is the company with the most integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product quality to service at Apple stores. Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument, makes me highly value their genius marketing. Learning how their concise UX from products to slogan can convince reasonable people to act emotionally is a must for every entrepreneur.

> Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument If you're going to make a claim about the quality of an argument, please back it up. Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. I'm not making an emotional, nor an unreasonable claim. I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and…

I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and I've never, not once, seen Apple act without integrity.

And they are all customer-facing interactions. Not that I'm suggesting the two companies are the same, but I'm reasonably sure that I could set fire to something I bought at Walmart and still return it for a full refund. Despite their crappy products, I've always got relatively good customer service at Walmart. Meanwhile, they absolutely hammer their suppliers to within an inch of their lives. In fact, one of the main reasons Walmart is able to not care about refunds is because of their margins with suppliers.

So, I'm not suggesting that Apple does hammer their suppliers- I have no evidence on hand to suggest so. But to assume that they don't because you, as a customer giving them money, has had a fantastic experience, is strange logic indeed.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#72

Post by cooldeal »

rbarooah wrote: post #51
recoiledsnake wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nokia is known for the best working conditions in their plants in Europe because of the labor laws there. For example look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxYiXtzKd0&feature=playe... However, due to their all their competitors including Apple moving manufacturing to China, they have been forced to close their European plants and move to China as well.

Nokia isn't doing the most to improve working conditions. Apple is.

So someone who stopped beating the wife is more laudable than someone who never did?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#73

Post by lancewiggs »

theoj wrote: post #68
lancewiggs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data does support the case. It may be incorrect, or incomplete. But why would they be hiding fatality stats? Why would they get away with that when they are subject to the crazy levels of scrutiny that we see today? Safety management is based on identifying and reducing hazards, which reduces accidents, near misses, lost time injuries, serious injuries and ultimately fatalities. With a large enough number of work…

>> The data does support the case. Oh, it does? Let's look at the article together and see if we can find that data: >> (The US rate is) 3.5 per 100,000: we would expect, if the Foxconn factories were no more dangerous than the average American workplace, 35 workplace deaths a year among those 1 million workers. Yes, each of those deaths, each of those injuries, in those aluminium dust explosions is a tragedy. But if…

It's relatively easy to hide accident stats. It's very difficult to hide fatalities - especially over time.

I would be unsurprised at better safety stats than the US. With DuPont as one of several exceptions, the safety culture in the USA is still one of compliance. The mining record is awful versus global large companies. Apple and other customers are able to demand and get certain requirements met. A key part of that would be safety, and the first rule is integrity in measurement.

I've seen plants in Colombia and Mozambique operate at industry leading levels of safety. China can do it too - it really helps when you have a workforce that is motivated and eager for the relatively high paid work.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#74

Post by vibrunazo »

nirvana wrote: post #54
vibrunazo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is the company with the most integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product quality to service at Apple stores. Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument, makes me highly value their genius marketing. Learning how their concise UX from products to slogan can convince reasonable people to act emotionally is a must for every entrepreneur.

> Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument If you're going to make a claim about the quality of an argument, please back it up. Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. I'm not making an emotional, nor an unreasonable claim. I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and…

> Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem.

Please don't think that. Wasn't my intention. I've followed your posts, you're a very bright person, and I love reading what you have to say. I agree with you that Apple is being target both because it's a big brand and because there's political motivation. I also do agree with you they make great products, I never implied otherwise.

I only think "integrity" only because "Word would get out" between poor Chinese workers who barely have an alternative is a little bit pushing it.

I didn't mean to offend you, nor apple, when I said their marketing is genius at making their users emotional about their products. I was being honest, if a smart and reasonable person like you can get emotional with their brand. That doesn't mean that you're a sheep nor that they're dishonest. It only means that you're human and they're genius at doing they're job. And we as entrepreneurs should recognize that and try to understand how they're so good at branding.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#75

Post by xal »

ktizo wrote: post #62
xal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no horse in this race but It's very well known that Apple does indeed pick who bids lowest but: * They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce * They put severe requirements on secrecy * The they put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated All of the above are enforced. Apple has massive teeth. They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offence…

"They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offences." No they don't; "The FLA investigation, released late last week, resulted in the questioning of 35,000 Foxconn workers across the Chengdu, Longhua and Guanlan factories and found average hours worked per week were 56, compared to the legal Chinese limit of 49 hours, which includes overtime." http://www.crn.com.au/News/295713,apple-a…

Apple is quite adamant on work weeks standards, however this is in direct conflicts with the workers (!!). In fact, workers at Foxcon and others have started preferring to work for other companies then Apple because they can't get the amount of paid overtime that they want.

Remember, China is a very different place then the US. Simply taking our own standards and transplanting them onto this area of the world will lead you to misunderstand the signals.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#76

Post by olalonde »

I always find it ironic when Foxconn is criticized for not treating their employees well when the fact is, Foxconn has done more to alleviate poverty in China than any single other company I can think of.

I live a few blocks away from the Foxconn factory in Shenzhen and whenever I try to bring up the "poor working conditions at Foxconn" topic with locals, I most often get a blank stare as if I had suggested something completely absurd. The truth is, Foxconn jobs are vastly superior to most alternatives down here.

I would recommend Western "do-gooders" to keep in mind that Chinese people are much more concerned about their own working conditions and well being than anyone else. They are in a much better position to address their own problems and if they ever need help from us Westerners, I'm sure they won't hesitate to ask. Meanwhile, I suggest we humbly mind our own business.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#77

Post by [deleted] »

ktizo wrote: post #60
nirvana wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and always have." Do you have a cite for your claim that Apple has never been holding their producers up to a standard of quality, and has been entering into contracts on the SOLE basis of price? Of course you don't, as this is just an ideological statement, already refuted by my pointing out their history of audits and high requiremen…

You are why Hacker News is in decline and why anyone who is capable of argument-- such as myself-- is hesitant to post here I'd hate to see what happens when you aren't being hesitant.

[deleted]

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#78

Post by sliverstorm »

nirvana wrote: post #55
ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a cite for Apple "revolutionizing" working conditions? Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and always have. One of the big reason Foxconn is so large now is precisely because they were the low bidder for Apple's business years ago. Now, I agree with the premise of the linked article that Apple has been unfairly tarnished for problems that are endemic to the industr…

> "Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and always have." Do you have a cite for your claim that Apple has never been holding their producers up to a standard of quality, and has been entering into contracts on the SOLE basis of price? Of course you don't, as this is just an ideological statement, already refuted by my pointing out their history of audits and high requiremen…

Did you make a counter argument? No, you just demanded a "cite". Did you defend your assertions as I did?

What defense is needed, if you cannot produce corroborating evidence/sources?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#79

Post by WiseWeasel »

vibrunazo wrote: post #74
nirvana wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching really smart people repeat this emotional and unreasonable argument If you're going to make a claim about the quality of an argument, please back it up. Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. I'm not making an emotional, nor an unreasonable claim. I've been a customer of Apple for decades, and a partner of theirs for many years. I've had many interactions with them, across a variety of modes, and…

> Otherwise it comes off as a form of ad hominem. Please don't think that. Wasn't my intention. I've followed your posts, you're a very bright person, and I love reading what you have to say. I agree with you that Apple is being target both because it's a big brand and because there's political motivation. I also do agree with you they make great products, I never implied otherwise. I only think "integrity" only beca…

That's going to go straight to his head.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#80

Post by Kylekramer »

xal wrote: post #75
ktizo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offences." No they don't; "The FLA investigation, released late last week, resulted in the questioning of 35,000 Foxconn workers across the Chengdu, Longhua and Guanlan factories and found average hours worked per week were 56, compared to the legal Chinese limit of 49 hours, which includes overtime." http://www.crn.com.au/News/295713,apple-a…

Apple is quite adamant on work weeks standards, however this is in direct conflicts with the workers (!!). In fact, workers at Foxcon and others have started preferring to work for other companies then Apple because they can't get the amount of paid overtime that they want. Remember, China is a very different place then the US. Simply taking our own standards and transplanting them onto this area of the world will le…

Nah, I think the standards are pretty universal. It isn't surprising they want more hours. It isn't like they love working, they love money (a very universal standard). The reason why it is in direct conflict with the workers is they aren't getting a fair wage. Overtime isn't a sign of happy workers, it is a sign of mismanagement and low wages.
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