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While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#41

Post by jdq »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #3

As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions. They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software…

"As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions."

Blame needs to be proportional to amount produced, not amount profited. If I have one phone manufactured and I charge $11 million for it (and actually find a buyer), but you produce a million $10 phones, your impact on the workers is far greater.

"On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software and media purchases."

So if tomorrow Apple decided to sell their phones at half price, thereby eliminating all profits, then suddenly no one will be able to say anything to Apple about their manufacturing and worker treatment?

"Meanwhile, the other companies are not doing very well, and labor cost increases for them might put them out of business entirely and then the workers won't even have a job. ... This is why Apple is criticized more since it has most leeway of all the companies mentioned in the article to increase wages."

So it all amounts to how much you charge the end user. If a company charges more for their product they must ensure the workers of the companies they contract with are paid/treated fairly, but if a company chooses to sell devices at little to not profit, they can treat the workers however they want.

It sounds to me more like if a company makes a device and provides it to you cheaply, you'll look the other way on how they handle manufacturing.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#42

Post by lancewiggs »

theoj wrote: post #19
xenophanes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got it from https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph... which gives a data source and is linked from http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012-03-20-now-can-we-star...

Careful with your data sources and assertions. Some of this "data" needs a serious dose of fact checking. The data for: https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph... as indicated at the bottom, comes from: http://onforb.es/wj2Lt6 which maps to: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/01/29/the-apple... If you look at Tim Worstall's (kinda op-ed) article on the second page, you can see that the…

The data does support the case. It may be incorrect, or incomplete. But why would they be hiding fatality stats? Why would they get away with that when they are subject to the crazy levels of scrutiny that we see today?

Safety management is based on identifying and reducing hazards, which reduces accidents, near misses, lost time injuries, serious injuries and ultimately fatalities. With a large enough number of workers, as we have in this case, fatality number is a very good proxy for the other stats.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#43

Post by lancewiggs »

officialchicken wrote: post #40
hmottestad wrote: post #10

Did anyone notice the text under the image "A worker inspected motherboards on a factory line at the Foxconn plant in Shenzen, China, in May." She is looking at a graphics cards, not a motherboard.

First thing I noticed. And unfortunately for the author, that's where I stopped reading, since the credibility is instantly lost.

That may (likely) have been put there by a sub editor, not the author. Still impinges on the credibility of NYTimes though.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#44

Post by Duff »

I find all of this hand-wringing over working conditions to be the biggest pile of bunk that I have ever heard of.

The only reason that China is manufacturing just about every consumer product out there is that sending work there allows you to exploit cheap labor, lax environmental regulation, and other regulation found in western countries.

So now some westerners who "care" are waxing on about the poor iPhone workers. Why aren't the Chinese people making shoes, underwear, leather coats or other unpleasant jobs worthy of our pity?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#45

Post by jkn »

jdq wrote: post #41
recoiledsnake wrote: post #3

As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions. They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software…

"As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions." Blame needs to be proportional to amount produced, not amount profited. If I have one phone manufactured and I charge $11 million for it (and actually find a buyer), but you produce a million $10 phones, your impact on the workers is far greater. "On the other hand, many oth…

Blame needs to be proportional to amount produced, not amount profited.

But the profit margin is an important factor in your ability to make things better.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#46

Post by recoiledsnake »

rbarooah wrote: post #38
cooldeal wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equal responsibility but lesser blame. It's like slagging on a poor man for eating unhealthy food on the dollar menu at McDonalds. That man has an excuse, he doesn't have the money to shop for organic food at Whole Foods. Someone already super rich eating the dollar menu just to save a few bucks definitely deserves more blame not for eating healthy. There isn't much money left over after Apple is done sucking the pro…

Since they are doing the most to improve working conditions, perhaps they deserve more profit.

Nokia is known for the best working conditions in their plants in Europe because of the labor laws there. For example look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxYiXtzKd0&feature=playe...

However, due to their all their competitors including Apple moving manufacturing to China, they have been forced to close their European plants and move to China as well.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#47

Post by tatsuke95 »

rbarooah wrote: post #36
tatsuke95 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't. Look, I'm not particularly into this debate. I believe the conditions are relatively horrible, but there are lots of horrible things going on in the world, so it's not where I'd spend my time. At the end of the day, working at Foxconn is voluntary, as opposed to, say, cancer. That said, I'm glad that there are people in the world fighting this fight. It's how social change happens. And I'm going to assum…

Targeting Apple has proven to be the best vehicle for that. Do you have any evidence at all for this? How do you know that targeting other companies too wouldn't be more effective?

My proof is that they're attacking Apple, and it's working; we're talking about it. We're also talking about the fact that Apple isn't the only company to blame. Even that happened by attacking Apple.

I'm not being facetious: are you really in need of evidence? It's happening, and the people who are doing it have decided it's the best strategy. I can't go by anything else. And thanks to the nature of the experiment, it can't be repeated. It may or may not be optimal, it just is.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#48

Post by nextparadigms »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #3

As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions. They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software…

$575 in profit? No they aren't making that much. How could you even believe that?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#49

Post by nextparadigms »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #7
xenophanes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$575 profit per iPhone? I think you mixed up profit with something else, maybe average sale price. In a free market, profit isn't determined by cost or your intuition about "fairness". Price is determined by supply and demand, and profit is price minus cost. Foxxconn already pays well above average wages while providing a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer, and a lower suicide rate than the Chinese aver…

>$575 profit per iPhone? I think you mixed up profit with something else, maybe average sale price. The number is from the usual suspect Asymco. http://www.asymco.com/2012/04/02/android-economics/ >Whereas Android generates $1.70/device/year and thus an Android device with a two year life generates about $3.5 to Google over its life, Apple obtained $576.3 for each iOS device it sold in 2011[4]. The economics of Andro…

I don't know why people even read Asymco. His data why seemingly true, because he shows you charts and whatnot, it's usually very misleading.

Apple doesn't make $575 in profit per iPhone. The components alone cost around $300, and they only get like $650 from the carrier, but you also have to take into account all the extra costs, marketing, shipping, salaries, R&D, and so on. At most they probably make around $200-$300 in profit for iPhone, depending on the version.

The Android data is also misleading. He's taking it from what Google said in the trial. You don't think Google would try to downplay the revenues they get from Android in the trial through some smart accounting?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#50

Post by rbarooah »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #47
rbarooah wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeting Apple has proven to be the best vehicle for that. Do you have any evidence at all for this? How do you know that targeting other companies too wouldn't be more effective?

My proof is that they're attacking Apple, and it's working; we're talking about it. We're also talking about the fact that Apple isn't the only company to blame. Even that happened by attacking Apple. I'm not being facetious: are you really in need of evidence? It's happening, and the people who are doing it have decided it's the best strategy. I can't go by anything else. And thanks to the nature of the experiment,…

I didn't say it wasn't working. I just think don't think it's helpful to claim it's the best way.

[edit: one reason I think it's unhelpful is that it legitimizes misleading reporting, which is itself a great harm]

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