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U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

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Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#91

Post by lordfrito »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #24

"National security" has been increasingly been used over the last 5 years as a justification for measures that are actually much more broadly geopolitical in nature. A private individual using a Huawei phone or router isn't a national security threat to the US. However, in a broader sense, the US government sees the technological development of China as a threat to American strategic dominance, and has been taking ev…

> Americans should consider if they really want to turn their relationship with the world's largest economy into one that is purely hostile.

The relationship is far from "purely hostile". We're giant trading partners. The relationship is mutually beneficial.

As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. And they've built their economy using so much stolen IP that's it's hard to believe this wasn't CCP policy coming from the top. [1] [2]

It's also not hard to imagine CCP hackers using homegrown telecommunications equipment as part of this IP "procurement" process. Personally I think a move like this is long overdue. As has been said here, what's wrong with deciding who your friends are and aren't? We're trading partners, that doesn't necessarily make us allies. Yes this is geopolitical, and if geopolitical issues aren't issues of national security, I don't know what is.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr...

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#92

Post by galdosdi »

k_paleologos wrote: post #54

Is this an executive measure? Does the executive have authority to do such a thing, based on vague and nebulous claims of threat to national security? Were these companies providing sevices/supplying goods in the US market subject to necessary US regulatory approvals? On which grounds can such approvals be rescinded without evidence that will stand in courts? Moreover this is infact a restriction on US citizens/ firm…

> Does it not impinge on their rights to fair choice?

What are you talking about. You just made up a legal right that has never existed. Try going and opening up a restaurant in any city in america without submitting to any health department inspection. You will get shut down.

There is no such universal right under US law to "fair choice" when buying goods, whatever that might mean. There are millions of pages of laws and regulations affecting buying and selling of goods in all 50 states as well as in the federal government.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#93

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

k_paleologos wrote: post #69
galdosdi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. For those in a hurry, here's an excerpt from the executive summary. ``` Despite hours of interviews, extensive and repeated document requests, a review of open-source information, and an open hearing with witnesses from both companies, the Committee remains unsatisfied with the level of cooperation and candor provided by each company. Neither company was willing to provide sufficient evidence to amelior…

"During the investigation, the Committee received information from industry experts and current and former Huawei employees suggesting that Huawei, in particular, may be violating United States laws. " This is a claim which can only be proven in a court of law.

So? No one's bringing them up on criminal charges.

If I think you're shady and you refuse to provide evidence otherwise, then I don't have to do business with you. And if I'm in charge of regulating business in the country, then I can prevent you from doing business here because of that perceived shadyness. It's that simple.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#94

Post by skeeter2020 »

k_paleologos wrote: post #69
galdosdi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. For those in a hurry, here's an excerpt from the executive summary. ``` Despite hours of interviews, extensive and repeated document requests, a review of open-source information, and an open hearing with witnesses from both companies, the Committee remains unsatisfied with the level of cooperation and candor provided by each company. Neither company was willing to provide sufficient evidence to amelior…

"During the investigation, the Committee received information from industry experts and current and former Huawei employees suggesting that Huawei, in particular, may be violating United States laws. " This is a claim which can only be proven in a court of law.

There's a decided lack of understanding in this thread about the US constitution and the role of Congress, and what this story is about. US Telecoms is a federally regulated industry. Congress does have the powers to compel testimony from individuals or companies related to this situation. If they're not satisified with the responses they can prevent them from selling into the regulated market. They don't need to engage the judiciary branch to do so.

We can argue IF this is "right" and IF these companies have been unfairly targeted, but please stop the misinformation about not having to answer to congress and requiring a court of law.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#95

Post by ghastmaster »

andsoitis wrote: post #40
usui wrote: post #39

Every article I’ve ever read that cites “national security concerns” never, ever explicitly goes into the exact, computational mechanism in which it is a security concern. It’s always something like “Chinese company under Chinese government, therefore bad”. Never anything concrete or substantive from a software engineer POV, such as what exactly is phoned-home, or what actual subversions are happening currently, only…

Not quite. Here you can read more about the underlying reasons: https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:rm226yb7473/Huawei-ZT...

The underlying reasons detailed in that report, again, are gripes about the corporate structure, transparency, and illegal practices. There are no current or past hardware or software threats detailed in that report. The "National Security Threat" posed by these companies is potential not actual. The justification to eliminate this potential is predicated on corporate shenanigans. The real threat they pose, in my opinion, is likely to U.S. corporation's stock price.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#96

Post by namkt »

medellin wrote: post #80
keewee7 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot gets buried in the privacy discussions but the unfair trade practices are also a problem. For example Western app makers don't have access to Chinese consumers the same way Chinese app makers have access to Western consumers.

Even companies as large as Uber got strong armed in china. From having traffic shut off completely inside the country without warning (no net neutrality laws) to having to setup an entirely new business in china that didn’t touch the US one. I have little sympathy and i hope that the Us continues to push restrictions on china tech.

Uber probably isn't the best example given that the company prided itself in being 'fucking illegal', but your point generally stands.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/10/uber-investigation-...

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#97

Post by galdosdi »

k_paleologos wrote: post #61
rgbrenner wrote: post #28

Reminder of how this started... when Huawei and ZTE decided that because they weren't American companies, they didnt need to answer questions from Congress, and even outright lied about the structure of their companies to conceal CPC/government involvement: https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:rm226yb7473/Huawei-ZT...

Is government involvement problematic? Many firms have government involvement, often in an under the table manner. For example Airbus. Government involvement is in itself no grounds for banning a company.

Airbus is a French company. France is part of NATO. In the event of war, France and the US would likely be obligated to be on the same side by their NATO treaty obligations.

I don't think you are very informed on this matter.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#98

Post by somenameforme »

ranger47 wrote: post #23
tosh wrote: post #16

Can anyone familiar with the topic ELI5 this? Does this mean you can't use (buy? (sell?)) ZTE or Huawei modems in the US going forward? Or is this just a restriction re US govt related entities?

ELI5: The US and China are not very good friends, but Chinese goods still get sold to US markets. China's gov't has a hand in every company in its borders, or so it is suspected, since this is routinely denied by the companies and the Chinese gov't. Some of those companies make computers that can watch and listen to us, whether we ask them to or not. The US is no longer comfortable with that arrangement. Of course, i…

The way you're framing makes it sound unique to China. PRISM [1] hasn't gone anywhere and has certainly only expanded since the leaks. Google, Apple, Microsoft, and many others were all participating companies. If China starts stooping to the same level here they would be obligated to ban products from these companies and more. If they want to make a spectacle of it, they could even have a kangaroo court committee hearing where they ask these companies about their relationship to the NSA and other alphabet agencies.

Any country operating in any country anywhere is going to subject to the whims and influences of the government in their home country. Some make it more or less overt, but pretending this is some discovery or "them vs us" thing is absurd. This whole affair is another step in the apparent goal of escalation with China, to what purpose - I have no clue.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#99

Post by zokar »

skorpeon87 wrote: post #63
anon291 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting Europeans deal with Europe was the stance for all of American history until WWII.

A lot of Americans are American because their European ancestors got sick of European affairs and wanted a clean break from it. Nonetheless, a lot of the anti-interventionist rhetoric seen on the net today feels very astroturfed. Anybody accusing NATO of warmongering is safe to write off as a Russian-aligned troll, considering Russia is the one who actually invaded a foreign country. NATO's "war mongering" amounts to…

In other words, one is not allowed to speculate about a different outcome if NATO hadn't pushed forward so aggressively.

The realism school of Mearsheimer is forbidden. Freedom of thought is one of the first casualties of the war.

Re: U.S. bans equipment from Huawei and ZTE, citing national security concerns

#100

Post by namkt »

nazgulsenpai wrote: post #30
acidburnNSA wrote: post #8

Original source: https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-bans-authorizations-devices... This covers Dahua, which I believe is the supplier that underlies cheap security cams like Amcrest, which have been a common choice for people who want local-only non-cloud cams for a long time.

Ouch, I own a few of these cameras. I chose Amcrest because they have a local US distributer who does all of the technical/warranty support. Interesting.

At this point you can't trust any 'cloud' camera regardless of who makes it.
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