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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#91

Post by sam_lowry_ »

Heyso wrote: post #86

Putin tells Europe: if you want gas then open Nord Stream 2 "President Vladimir Putin on Friday denied Russia had anything to do with Europe's energy crisis, saying that if the European Union wanted more gas it should lift sanctions preventing the opening of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Speaking to reporters after the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Uzbekistan, Putin blamed what he called "the green agenda…

He is obviously lying. Russia willingly cut supplies on all other pipeline to well under 20% of usual flow [1], and even those 20% are there to keep the system running. Nord Stream 2 was never put in production.

Anyone vested in the topic would understand that he says nonsense.

However, the TV audience back home sees a picture of a confident leader.

He is also hoping that fringe influencers around the world pick his lies in their agenda.

[1] https://berthub.eu/gazmon/

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#92

Post by Heyso »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

But it is fine killing 14k peoples in the Donbass over 8 years ?

And it is fine killing russians for you I suppose ? Because "they are the bad guys".

And maybe you are okay to kill peoples in middle east, because they need "democraty", they have "terrorists", and their leader is a "dictator".

The very core of who we are ? Brainwashed. That's what we are.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#93

Post by Heyso »

yread wrote: post #74
diimdeep wrote: post #71

Who is at War exactly ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#US_sanctions_and... [2] > Alternatives to Russian supplies—including LNG from the U.S. and other countries

Depends who you ask: Russia: NATO is at war with us. We're not at war with anyone cause it's a special military operation Everyone else: Russia and Ukraine are at war

Who's is sending weapons to Ukraine for free ? Who is putting military base around the country ? Who's putting "defensive" missile launcher around the country ?

It is not just Russia VS Ukraine.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#94

Post by Heyso »

diimdeep wrote: post #88
yread wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends who you ask: Russia: NATO is at war with us. We're not at war with anyone cause it's a special military operation Everyone else: Russia and Ukraine are at war

> Depends who you ask: Well, you will hear some opinion, based on some perspective. Almost always it is not whole truth, but a subset of facts. But there is so much more at play. What bothers me is how western news manipulative and no one really notice. News giving everyone a subset of facts, while omitting others, not painting the entire truth. They are not lying, but at the same time manipulate opinion of a large p…

Like lying by omission, or relaying some false news, and apologizing a day or two later (discretly when the harm is already done).

It is pretty obvious our media (at least in France) serve some agenda when you look at their finances. The rich guys that detain theses medias know how to make money. Meaning it is worth keeping these medias despite what it cost them each year.

And why would you keep an unprofitable business ? Unless it serves them in another manner...

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#95

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

ptr wrote: post #84
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of go…

Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.

It’s a war. What did you expect exactly?

Now that the Ukrainians are taking back territories I fully expect the purging related stories to be on their way and it’s not going to look pretty as usual. Wars are disgusting affairs.

You can’t base your analysis on the reported exactions committed by one side. That’s just setting you as an easy target for propaganda.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#96

Post by sam_lowry_ »

skc wrote: post #68
cm2187 wrote: post #45

But long term, despite their history of moronic energy policy, I don't see the EU making itself dependent again on Russian gas (or any other critical commodity). Which is kind of a problem for a commodity driven economy like Russia.

Surprisingly short-sighted by the Russians

Putin turns 70 this year, and he only needs to keep the status quo until he peacefully dies.

Russians have no voice there.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#97

Post by samus »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #78
samus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of go…

Any outcome that doesn't discourage Russia from just trying again is obviously bad for the Ukrainian population in the long run. Peace talks before serious Ukranian progress at retaking Crimea would also just be a repetition of previous attempts to resolve the issue and appease Ukraine and the West while pursuing a completely different agenda.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#98

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

Heyso wrote: post #92
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

But it is fine killing 14k peoples in the Donbass over 8 years ? And it is fine killing russians for you I suppose ? Because "they are the bad guys". And maybe you are okay to kill peoples in middle east, because they need "democraty", they have "terrorists", and their leader is a "dictator". The very core of who we are ? Brainwashed. That's what we are.

> But it is fine killing 14k peoples in the Donbass over 8 years?

I know this statement was being repeated in Russian state TV. But the sole blame for these deaths is with Putin, because he started the killing in 2014, just like he did in 2022.

Of course I don't want Russian soldiers to die, these are human beings with families etc. (although some of them seem like soulless beasts, I hope that's minority). This doesn't change the fact that it's Putin who sent them to death, not Ukrainians. None of them would have died if you hadn't attacked Ukraine.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#99

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

redscareone wrote: post #63
prox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, my stance as well. Russia is making an ideological mistake and just doesn’t understand the 21st century (and what we learned in the 20th)

[flagged]

I was thinking recently. Would I prefer to die in an atomic blast or live under Russian occupation? Having seen some scenes from Bucha and other places I'm inclined toward the former.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#100

Post by Proven »

fabian2k wrote: post #39
misja111 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Only 46% of Germans want to stick to the plan of not using gas from Russia's new Northstream 2 pipeline when things will get more tough in the winter: https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/forsa-blitzumfrage-... Most of the proponents of giving in to Putin's tempting offer are coming from the right populist AFD party or from former East Germany.

I think the following poll is more relevant here: https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/220715-politbarometer... https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/politbarometer-union-... 70% say that we should still support Ukraine even with high energy prices. And this value is stable so far. The Nordstream 2 issue is more complex, and I don't think the people answering the poll fully understand it. I also don't know how exa…

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