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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#91

Post by batch12 »

Nathanba wrote: post #79
batch12 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, these examples- radio and TV aren't even in the same league as the manipulation and engagement that comes from the algorithmic feedback loop that backs these services. The comparison is dangerously dismissive.

Surely TV and radio also have algorithms behind them determining how to increase viewership. Facebook and Instagram do the same but in realtime with more knobs to turn. I personally don't quite understand how somebody can get addicted to social media but I understand video games and I would support some kind of government bureau that determines the addictiveness of a game and puts a label on it. For example games tha…

Yes absolutely TV and radio use algorithms to boost engagement. These are still dangerous, just less. The difference is the speed at which these sources collect and use information and the volume of data collected. It isn't just that these new mediums have more control, but that they can exercise the control in real-time.

With your video game idea, what's the difference between this and other software? Some social media seems like the game that never ends.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#92

Post by thegrimmest »

sascha_sl wrote: post #89
thegrimmest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provably better First we have to all agree on what this means, which I'm quite sure is impossible. Everything the free market does is voluntary by definition. Every "intervention" is by definition not. That is exactly the basis for my opposition to authoritarian paternalism. Also I disagree that corporations are "enacting control" - they are merely exerting influence. There is a world of difference.

>Everything the free market does is voluntary by definition. Every "intervention" is by definition not. I think we're going to have to disagree for good here. I much prefer living in a country where radically free markets are substantially toned down.

I'm sure you do. I'm questioning the basis for your imposing this view onto others who would disagree.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#93

Post by V-2 »

Nathanba wrote: post #79
batch12 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, these examples- radio and TV aren't even in the same league as the manipulation and engagement that comes from the algorithmic feedback loop that backs these services. The comparison is dangerously dismissive.

Surely TV and radio also have algorithms behind them determining how to increase viewership. Facebook and Instagram do the same but in realtime with more knobs to turn. I personally don't quite understand how somebody can get addicted to social media but I understand video games and I would support some kind of government bureau that determines the addictiveness of a game and puts a label on it. For example games tha…

Chess is very addictive, and certainly endless. Same with cardgames. I'm sure your government bureau would quite grow fast, coming up with ever more warning labels.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#94

Post by ModernMech »

jacquesm wrote: post #19
300bps wrote: post #5

I’ve said for years that the 20th century saw humanity for the first time having to learn to live in a world of infinite sugar, fat and salt. The 21st century will be about learning to live in a world of infinite information. We will all have to be mindful of whether we are consuming the mental equivalent of broccoli, donuts or anthrax.

Good stuff, really. I like the analogy between sugar, fat, salt and information, though infotainment may be a better term for the stuff we are addicted to.

Yes, just as some cultures have very specific meanings for concepts (like the famous German compound words, or the variety of words the native Inuit language uses to describe types and formations of snow), we should probably develop more specific words than just the generic all-encompassing “information” or “data”.

Infotainment is a good one, but we will need many more!

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#95

Post by IHLayman »

le-mark wrote: post #25
jacquesm wrote: post #8

There is a veritable war going on for your attention, and the battlefields are your eyeballs, your ears and ultimately your brain. Psychologists have been enlisted, as they are in every war to try to win it for 'their side', be it one of the big silos or some dying TV or newspaper era behemoth, there is no reasonable way in which you can withstand that kind of frontal onslaught. The only way to really deal with this…

Recently my son (8) was talking about how cool his uncles vr headset is and made the leap to what if that was in your brain! I was impressed he made that connection. Then I reminded him how all the games on his iPad forced him to watch ads, wouldn’t that be a similar situation, only in his brain? His eyes got wide then he got a disgusted look on his face. He agreed that would suck. I personally think there have alway…

I hate to be that person but I must point out that there are studies that show that children less than 10 years old using VR can have impaired head-trunk coordination. See this study for more info: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96866-8

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#96

Post by hnthrowaway0315 »

radicalbyte wrote: post #18

My attention has collapsed in recent times, but it's not because of mobiles. It's because I have three young kids. You literally have to keep your eye on them at all times so you stop them killing themselves. Also, going from 8 hrs of sleep a night + 1 hr of intensive sport a day to 4-5 hrs of sleep a night and 1 hr of sport a year is an absolute mind killer. When I was younger I could never imagine going into manage…

Same story. Having kid completely turns my life around.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#97

Post by sascha_sl »

thegrimmest wrote: post #92
sascha_sl wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everything the free market does is voluntary by definition. Every "intervention" is by definition not. I think we're going to have to disagree for good here. I much prefer living in a country where radically free markets are substantially toned down.

I'm sure you do. I'm questioning the basis for your imposing this view onto others who would disagree.

This presupposed the "voluntary" part of capitalism, which I find objectionable, but I didn't want to go on a tangent for too long.

FWIW, I wouldn't want to prescribe a particular habit of eating healthy or not binging media, but I also don't consider the current status quo neutral. It is true that it is simply a product of profit incentives, but that doesn't mean the outcomes are good, desirable or natural.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#98

Post by thegrimmest »

sascha_sl wrote: post #97
thegrimmest wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you do. I'm questioning the basis for your imposing this view onto others who would disagree.

This presupposed the "voluntary" part of capitalism, which I find objectionable, but I didn't want to go on a tangent for too long. FWIW, I wouldn't want to prescribe a particular habit of eating healthy or not binging media, but I also don't consider the current status quo neutral. It is true that it is simply a product of profit incentives, but that doesn't mean the outcomes are good, desirable or natural.

My point is that "good, desirable or natural" are not real. They are not concrete things that we can derive from observations about the world. They are akin to religions beliefs. Reasonable people can hold opposing views, and there is no oracle to divine the one truth. Given this situation, the only reasonable way forward seems to be tolerance of the full diversity of belief, and refrain from imposing one's own beliefs onto others.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#99

Post by tcbawo »

batch12 wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #8

There is a veritable war going on for your attention, and the battlefields are your eyeballs, your ears and ultimately your brain. Psychologists have been enlisted, as they are in every war to try to win it for 'their side', be it one of the big silos or some dying TV or newspaper era behemoth, there is no reasonable way in which you can withstand that kind of frontal onslaught. The only way to really deal with this…

Yes. People talk about addiction to social media or other attention-farming software, but not many people really take it seriously. People think they are unicorns and while some can get addicted or manipulated-- they think "not me. I am too savvy." As long this issue just keeps getting shrugged off as a new version of tv-is-bad hysteria 'media' companies will keep making their dollars and enslaving the minds of the t…

I called my Aunts and Uncles for New Year's Day, and they all brought up politics within ten minute conversations. It's not that media is forming their opinions. It's framing the topics of their thoughts and conversations. Conveniently, all these topics such as national/state policy and compliance, crime statistics and trends can only be fed by more media consumption. I worry about the permanence of the effects from these behavioral patterns. ADHD is a real medical condition, but there is also something else at play. It feels like we haven't developed the vocabulary to talk about these issues properly. I would love to tell people (like my Aunts and Uncles) something to the effect of "you seem a little X". Where X means your perspective is clouded by excessive media consumption.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#100

Post by mwattsun »

I had a dream last night that expressed my recent concern that Mark Zuckerberg and Meta are Pied Pipers leading our kids into virtual worlds where Meta controls everything including allowable expression and thought, where even certain concepts are banned with no allowable word for them [1]. My concern is that kids are getting VR headsets and going to a place where there is no parental control because adults don't understand VR or how to join their kids there. In my dream, and unseen voice is telling a young brother and sister how to secretly steal money from their grandparents and send it to them.

[1] Yeonmi Park: North Korea | Lex Fridman Podcast #196 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqSEKDVsA

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