New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable • Hacker News Board

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#91

Post by rdiddly » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #88

rdiddly wrote: post #66

I'll tell ya what I see: no rollers. Pins rubbing (wearing) both sides of the tooth. Including the back side, which will never exert any forward longitudinal force on a chain unless it's made of magnets. I also see a highly suspect FEA diagram on the right, where teeth not even engaged still show non-zero stresses (lighter blue, not the darkest blue), indicating that the color/stress scale has been changed compared t…

> I guess I'm a bit (to use one of Bike Snob NYC's favorite words) nonplussed. JK Rowling taught me that nonplussed is apparently a part of the daily vernacular in the UK.

I like how it can mean either 'confused' or 'unimpressed' which in certain situations can almost be opposites of each other. But both apply to me with this chain system!

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#92

Post by gameswithgo » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #26

usrusr wrote: post #11

I really don't get it: what power are they claiming to be transferring on the side of the tooth that isn't engaging with a roller chain? Also note that this is only for track bikes with a perfectly straight chainline (technically speaking it would also work for internal gear hubs wish are increasingly driven by belts in the upper price range). The shifting chain that is deployed diagonally more often than straight is…

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

bikes like that have existed, its possible. might be heavier by a bit.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#93

Post by mauvehaus » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #35

vondur wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure hope it's cheaper than the Rohloff hub, I can't imagine anyone buying these if they are very expensive. I thought I had read that chains and sprockets were pretty efficeint in terms of energy loss.

Tourers buy them. Money well spent. Just change the oil every year. Less efficient than a clean deraileur drivetrain but those stay clean for about 30 minutes.

Even a muddy chain is unreasonably efficient, to the tune of maybe 85-90% [0].

Having bike toured, keeping a chain halfway clean (or at least not muddy) is not hard. Yes, I see the appeal of an internally geared hub, but marginal differences in efficiency either way would not be high on my list of concerns.

[0] https://cyclingtips.com/2020/05/how-many-watts-does-a-dirty-...

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#94

Post by mauvehaus » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

I have to be honest, when IKEA launched the Sladda, I had high hope that they'd sell a zillion of them so I could pick one up barely used for a pittance in a couple years. Sadly, that seems to have not happened, and we'll have to wait a bit longer for the belt drive to become commonplace :-(

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#95

Post by olau » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

mpol wrote: post #67

lostlogin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal hubs are amazing and so great to use, until you get a puncture. It’s such a nightmare and I went through so many of those dumb proprietary nuts that strip so easily. Bikes like the Cannondale Bad Boy have got me thinking, what if the single fork was at the rear? Then you could have an internal hub and change the tube without the extra suffering. Yes, the loading at the read would be significantly greater, bu…

I don't think internal hubs are amazing :) Derailer systems only absord energy in the chain and bearings, and a well maintained system can maybe lose 1.5% of energy. Internal hub gearing can lose around 15% energy. The shop keeper won't tell you this, he just wants to sell you a bike. If he starts talking difficult things, buyers might just go to the next shop to buy what they had already chosen.

I have looked a several charts, and that is not an honest comparison. A derailleur will not be 1.5% energy loss across all gears. And I've not seen a chart for an internal hub that had 15% energy loss across all gears.

If you actually take a look at your derailleur system, you'll notice that a) the chain is not straight in all but a few settings, b) it has a somewhat complicated arm with an extra sprocket to keep the chain tight. And it is harder to protect it with a guard, so you end up with more dirt in the system if you use it every day.

But yes, internal hubs are heavier, generally somewhat less efficient, and better protected against the elements.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#96

Post by frabbit » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #22

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

If you want to shift gears using the carbon drive you have to use an internal gear hub, which has a lot less range than a traditional derailleur and is less efficient. So if you are riding a racing or mountain bike a chain system is probably a better way to go. Also it looks like you can't shift under load with the internal hubs which is a problem if you are trying to climb hills quickly.

Depends on the IGH. Nuvinci and Schlumpf definitely can.

The efficiency (like all other marginal gains in cycling) is important for racers or long-distance tourers. For everyone else it needs to be considered against the maintenance burden required to maintain an exposed drivetrain which needs to be cleaned, lubricated and adjusted in order to maintain its relative efficiency.

And weight...

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#97

Post by robga » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

shirakawasuna wrote: post #89

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

Any idea of the sustainability of the Gates Carbon Drive system? Looks like it's made of polymer + carbon fiber. On the other hand, traditional chains eat+shed oil and grease.

My Gates carbon belt is like new after 8 years riding my Schindelhauer Siegfried. I seem to remember 10 years quoted when I bought it.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#98

Post by brudgers » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #30

brudgers wrote: post #10

Reduced chain width has significantly changed bicycle drive trains over recent decades. Bicycles have many more usable gears. A manufacturer who pushed a non-standard chain heavily would wound cycle shops. Standardization facilities keeping parts in stock.

I'm not sure that's true. SRAM already went with their own non-compatible design with their latest road groups (AXS road). Bottom bracket "standards" have proliferated over the last 20 years (all 8 of the bikes in my garage use a different system). Hub spacing is non-standard too (100mm/130mm QR, 100/135 QR, 100/135 TA, 100/142 TA, 110/148 TA, Superboost, DH, and a few other niche standards). Even within a brand, the…

I'll cop to $5000 bicycle unfamiliarity and preferring to own one bike at a time. I guess the era of standardized chains is past. So I stand corrected. Thanks.

My current bike a late model Brompton, I am familiar with the extents to which other bespoke components is possible and a deliberate choice over something by Bike Friday.

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#99

Post by switch007 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #91

ComputerGuru wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess I'm a bit (to use one of Bike Snob NYC's favorite words) nonplussed. JK Rowling taught me that nonplussed is apparently a part of the daily vernacular in the UK.

I like how it can mean either 'confused' or 'unimpressed' which in certain situations can almost be opposites of each other. But both apply to me with this chain system!

I (a Brit) was confused by the apparent use to mean "unimpressed" but I stumbled upon this:

> Note: The use of nonplussed to mean "unimpressed" is an Americanism that has become increasingly common in recent decades and now appears frequently in published writing. It apparently arose from confusion over the meaning of nonplussed in ambiguous contexts, and it continues to be widely regarded as an error.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonplussed

Re: New bike chain claims to be faster, more durable

#100

Post by pkulak » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #22

leoh wrote: post #9

Great chain, but the Gates Carbon Drive is likely a superior technology. Europe has largely adopted it, but it is rare in the states. I have a Riese & Müller bike with a Gates Carbon Drive and it is absolutely lovely. Silent, but best of all, no grease on my pants or hands, ever. They handle dirt and dust super well (just dry off and wipe down with a cloth/no gears get jammed with a sealed planetary gear system). It…

If you want to shift gears using the carbon drive you have to use an internal gear hub, which has a lot less range than a traditional derailleur and is less efficient. So if you are riding a racing or mountain bike a chain system is probably a better way to go. Also it looks like you can't shift under load with the internal hubs which is a problem if you are trying to climb hills quickly.

My Pinion gearbox has 12 gears and a 600% range; about as much as a 3-chainring derailleur system. You can get them up to 18 gears and over 636%.

It is less efficient (apparently). But at least it's consistent. Ride a chain in the rain for just a couple days and trust me, it's nowhere near that theoretical 95%.