Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#91

Post by confiscate » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 3:53 AM UTC

squiggleblaz wrote: post #71

swsieber wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The end of the pipeline is not the correct place to change pipeline demographics, and in cases like this, is actually harmful.

But where is the right place to change pipeline demographics? The problem is that certain groups are intergenerationally poor. One mechanism that is available to us to fix that is education. So this isn't the end of the pipeline, it's just the start of the next pipe. Where do you propose we intervene? Should we give a cushy job to the parents of every disadvantaged minority person as soon as they're born? Maybe we sh…

You intervene when the student is still learning the material, before the test.

You do not intervene after the test. At that point the learning process for that material is already over. The student has already "missed out" on the learning opportunity. You would just be giving a good grade to someone who doesn't know the material.

Yes we need to help folks who are intergenerationally poor. But, you do that by helping their kids learn better and meet the testing bar.

You are not helping them by lowering the bar for them. Giving the kids better grades even if they don't know the material, would actually hurt them.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#92

Post by otoburb » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 3:55 AM UTC

The mayor, de Blasio, is trying to institute a similar system that was in place for NYC kindergarten admissions over a decade ago.

Prior to 2007, gifted and talented classes were skewed towards white and asians and the admissions process was criticized for allowing "favoritism and discrimination"[1]. A standardized test was then implemented for 4 year olds going forward, but over subsequent years people realized that this resulted in even lower hispanic and black enrollment into the coveted G&T programs[2].

de Blasio is pushing for a more ethnically diverse mix across all schools. Based on the K G&T admissions changes made in 2007, he is fairly sure this change will achieve his objective. He firmly subscribes to the idea that while certain elite schools will be by definition diluted in terms of academic achievement and excellence, the overall NYC school system will benefit. He fervently believes that trying to increase the global median achievement at the expense of a lower academic peak achieved by a tiny minority of students is worth it (aka YCMAOWBE[3] or TANSTAAFL[4]).

While I agree with the sentiment that one should try to fix the entire pipeline and not focus on the end product (too little too late), critics lambasting de Blasio's plan need to understand that he's simply making different trade-offs during his last term in office as mayor.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/26/nyregion/26gifted.html

[2] https://hechingerreport.org/as-new-york-struggles-to-make-gi...

[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_can%27t_make_an_omelette_...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as...

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#93

Post by iosDrone » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 3:57 AM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #87

iosDrone wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that the test-makers have scrupulously avoided culturally-biased questions for decades, and yet left-leaning people casually continue tossing it around as part of their war on merit.

I avoid eating too many potato chips and I still overconsume them. Just because you know you have the bias doesn't mean you defeat it 100% of the time. I agree that the effect is small if anything in today's society, however.

Provide some recent examples of bias on tests.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#94

Post by mrchicity » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

Fomite wrote: post #61

mrchicity wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they unfair? I've heard the old saw about the 1980s SATs asking some analogy with a regatta:yacht, but what bias has been uncovered lately? And why is this bias mostly helping Asians, a minority group, who more likely to be learning English as a second language?

There are a number of just-so stories you can make about them being either unfair or fair - but the education field doesn't consider this a settled question, and unless you're looking at the data in a systematic fashion with a clearly defined outcome and access to lots of control variables, you can't actually be sure the test yields the "best" students. And indeed, the definition of "best" in this context is circular…

Sure but you're fighting a strawman here. Nobody believes standardized tests are perfect or 100% accurate at determining ex post performance. We all know people who score well but lack discipline. People who support quotas don't merely believe tests are flawed, but believe they are flawed in extremely biased ways that need outside correction.

On most of these tests, you have to solve math or logic problems, or read passages and synthesize information. It's hard to imagine someone could do exceptionally well answering those questions quickly & accurately and not perform in a classroom, or be unable to do those tasks yet excel academically.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#95

Post by otoburb » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

dilap wrote: post #11

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the to…

Tracking and ability grouping have documented negative impacts on weak students. Placing a student in a remedial class becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, increasing the likelihood that his academic performance will fall further behind, and lowering the odds that he will complete high school. These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students.

However, those higher-performing students get nothing from being in classes with low performers, and get substantial benefits from being tracked into faster-moving classes with other top students. These students languish in mixed-ability classrooms as teachers focus on the slower students, or they’re conscripted to help teach their classmates the skills they’ve already mastered. And these students run in place while students in honors and gifted tracks press relentlessly forward.

The key phrase in the excerpt above is: "These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students." de Blasio latched onto those same study results and clearly believes that the trade off is worth it. While there may be some merit to your claim that de Blasio just wants to make himself feel better, I'm pretty sure that most "elites" in the city trying to send their children to top high schools are not happy with this outcome.

Note that middle school admissions are also being changed, starting in one district this year, such that top middle schools will be forced to set aside 25% of their seats for incoming students who scored below-average or at the bottom[1] of the middle-school state tests taken in Grade 4. The purpose of the plan is to "increase diversity in selective, high-performing middle schools [...]". A lot of parents in the affected district are upset.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/nyregion/new-york-top-mid...

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#96

Post by mrchicity » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

aavalle wrote: post #81

iosDrone wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some examples of cultural bias? People almost never provide examples. I thought that was always a bullshit excuse, especially considering that these test scores closely track IQ scores.

While the individual questions may be (for the most part) purged of any cultural bias, family income remains the primary demographic correlated with test performance. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these... https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e7a0/dfdee8ad5b91e1d179e9e2...

Is that surprising though? There's a strong correlation between pay and intellectual ability/education. There aren't many dull, uneducated engineers, doctors, lawyers, or executives.

If intelligence is at all heritable, you'd expect to see this. If educated parents tend to push their own children to become more educated, you'd expect to see this.

I wonder what the chart looks like broken down by where parents went to school or some non-financial metric. I would bet the children of well-educated college professors or journalists also score well, despite growing up with a more middle class household income.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#97

Post by imbokodo » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:14 AM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #92

The mayor, de Blasio, is trying to institute a similar system that was in place for NYC kindergarten admissions over a decade ago. Prior to 2007, gifted and talented classes were skewed towards white and asians and the admissions process was criticized for allowing "favoritism and discrimination"[1]. A standardized test was then implemented for 4 year olds going forward, but over subsequent years people realized that…

The parents of "gifted" white 4 year olds trying to keep black kids out due to their "gifted" 4 year olds hard work and their grind and the meritocracy...I mean it sounds like a parody.

"It's not due to racism or the to the manor born gift of idleness - these 'gifted' 4 year olds are high achievers"

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#98

Post by otoburb » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:26 AM UTC

imbokodo wrote: post #97

otoburb wrote: post #92

The mayor, de Blasio, is trying to institute a similar system that was in place for NYC kindergarten admissions over a decade ago. Prior to 2007, gifted and talented classes were skewed towards white and asians and the admissions process was criticized for allowing "favoritism and discrimination"[1]. A standardized test was then implemented for 4 year olds going forward, but over subsequent years people realized that…

The parents of "gifted" white 4 year olds trying to keep black kids out due to their "gifted" 4 year olds hard work and their grind and the meritocracy...I mean it sounds like a parody. "It's not due to racism or the to the manor born gift of idleness - these 'gifted' 4 year olds are high achievers"

I'm having trouble understanding the sentiment of your comment, but it seems you are deriding the "gifted" label bestowed by the NYC Department of Education. I agree that the label is unfortunate. From what I understand so far, the "gifted" curriculum is comparable to other high-achieving schools without the need for a "gifted" designation outside of the city and across the country.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#99

Post by dilap » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #95

dilap wrote: post #11

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the to…

Tracking and ability grouping have documented negative impacts on weak students. Placing a student in a remedial class becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, increasing the likelihood that his academic performance will fall further behind, and lowering the odds that he will complete high school. These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students. However, those higher-performing students ge…

The results of policies like these is that people with money will take their kids out of public schools. Smart kids w/o money will get screwed.

Not everyone is going to have equal interests and abilities. Bright kids deserve an educational environment where they can be challenged and develop their full potential.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#100

Post by otoburb » Tue, Jul 03, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #76

mindvirus wrote: post #3

I wonder how de Blasio's proposal would lead to different patterns of where people live in the city - it seems that to play this game (and it sounds like many parents are very motivated to), it makes sense to send your kids to an underperforming school.

Yes. I expect the author's mother would seek out school districts with the lowest test scores (perhaps the lowest population of Asian-Americans) and send her daughter there instead. So if what the policy makers really want is to equally distribute Asian immigrants among the city's middle schools, perhaps they've hit on the policy that will do that.

>Yes. I expect the author's mother would seek out school districts with the lowest test scores (perhaps the lowest population of Asian-Americans) and send her daughter there instead.

In that situation, the parents of a child who might be considered academically bright will need to contend with the additional burden of trying to motivate their child to be different (i.e. higher test scores) than the rest of their peers who, for various reasons, don't test as well.

Peer pressure is a thing, and is sometimes seen by parents as a blessing if it gives their child an incentive to study.