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Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

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Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Test scores are race-blind and fair. Kind of. There is a fair criticism to be made about tests being unintentionally culturally slanted towards the people that make them, often white Americans. Of course, in this case, your point is correct, since the people that are overindexing on the tests are Asian-Americans.

Can you provide some examples of cultural bias? People almost never provide examples. I thought that was always a bullshit excuse, especially considering that these test scores closely track IQ scores.

While the individual questions may be (for the most part) purged of any cultural bias, family income remains the primary demographic correlated with test performance.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these...

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e7a0/dfdee8ad5b91e1d179e9e2...

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#82
post #11

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the to…

> simply take the top N% w/in each racial bucket, rather than globally This would benefit wealthy Black/Latino kids, whose parents can afford test prep. If the goal is to have a more racially diverse student body, it accomplishes that goal. But if the goal is to help disadvantaged kids get ahead, then it's not useful.

you can make test prep available to everyone, and in fact there are programs doing that.

a better argument is it's unfair to kids in shit elementary schools. and it is, but you have to try to just make those schools better.

it's a true shame if you don't give the most talented/driven kids an opportunity to go to a first rate school.

standarized testing is imperfect, but it is the most fair system.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#83
post #11

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the to…

the supreme court declared racial quotas illegal.

which is really quite unfortunate, since everyone still wants to essentially set quotas, but now you can't do it in a transparent and fair (or less unfair) way.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#84
post #78
post #65

So lets say you have a really big balancing scale[1].... And there's a chute that's been feeding twice as much sand to one side, for hundreds of years.... What do you do to balance it? a) Distribute sand equally to each side b) Distribute substantially more sand to one side c) Make like the imbalance did not happen and ignore it. If the answer is obvious to the above, then why is leveling the field for historically d…

Yes, we should punish children for the sins of their fathers. Especially the immigrants, who had nothing to do with any of it.

What is the "punishment" you refer to? Removing an unfair advantage that is so innate, it's almost invisible to those that benefit it?

PS: Not that I should be indulging your vague references... but actually, we do it quite often. Did Bernie Madoff's kids/wife get the spoils of his crime? Has not pretty much every war had a form of "reparations"?

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Test scores are race-blind and fair. Kind of. There is a fair criticism to be made about tests being unintentionally culturally slanted towards the people that make them, often white Americans. Of course, in this case, your point is correct, since the people that are overindexing on the tests are Asian-Americans.

Agree. If a test contains questions that favor a particular race, then that is an outright problem, and schools should stop that. In this case, it's actually the opposite. When a test is in English, often Asians have to learn English, which is often not their primary language at home. So by default, an English-speaking race taking a test, has a HUGE advantage over an Asian test taker. Which is why the stereotype is t…

That is a good point and one I had not considered RE: math and the language barrier. Interesting.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#86

This is pretty standard and has been going on for decades. Asian-Americans are the last race you can openly commit racist policies against without dogwhistling. I don't know what it is, maybe it's because they are politically underreprsented or it's because they are underrepresented in popular culture in general, or their general attitude to be anti-political in nature, but it's just totally fine to withhold educatio…

> This is pretty standard... I don't know what it is...

Mostly the numbers. The "Asian" population in America is relatively small, and thus (perceived to be) easily managed. If one looks at demographic shifts, immigration policy, etc., over the course of the European expansion in to what is now America, the game should be pretty clear. Actually, Brazil is also a good example, if you look at their post-slavery immigration plan/policy.[2]

Anyway, I'm linking to an old post of mine from the Harvard discussion.[1] I highly recommend checking out Prof. Frank Wu's comments in the referenced video.

Also, it's worth noting that generally speaking, public schools are not considered to be elite. Elite schools are generally the exclusive ones where politicians, captains of industry, and the like send their kids to help them socialize with 'the right kind of people,' and maybe a smattering of common folk. I've been to those (as one of the common folk) and to elite public schools; the difference really is night and day.

This whole thing is just more divide and conquer. It pains me to see people continue to fall for it.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/30/opinion/is-neymar-black-b...

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they unfair? I've heard the old saw about the 1980s SATs asking some analogy with a regatta:yacht, but what bias has been uncovered lately? And why is this bias mostly helping Asians, a minority group, who more likely to be learning English as a second language?

I was under the impression that the test-makers have scrupulously avoided culturally-biased questions for decades, and yet left-leaning people casually continue tossing it around as part of their war on merit.

I avoid eating too many potato chips and I still overconsume them. Just because you know you have the bias doesn't mean you defeat it 100% of the time.

I agree that the effect is small if anything in today's society, however.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#88
post #86

This is pretty standard and has been going on for decades. Asian-Americans are the last race you can openly commit racist policies against without dogwhistling. I don't know what it is, maybe it's because they are politically underreprsented or it's because they are underrepresented in popular culture in general, or their general attitude to be anti-political in nature, but it's just totally fine to withhold educatio…

> This is pretty standard... I don't know what it is... Mostly the numbers. The "Asian" population in America is relatively small, and thus (perceived to be) easily managed. If one looks at demographic shifts, immigration policy, etc., over the course of the European expansion in to what is now America, the game should be pretty clear. Actually, Brazil is also a good example, if you look at their post-slavery immigra…

>> Also, it's worth noting that generally speaking, public schools are not considered to be elite.

That's typically true but not of the NY high schools. These schools are truly elite high schools.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#89
Gee, all this terrible struggle over what can and can't get from some K-12 school. What a WASTE. Huge misunderstanding.

Bronx High School of Science? How about instead Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Princeton?

How to do that? Well, big secret (don't tell anyone!): How do professors at research universities stay up to date so that they can do leading edge research? Do they take refresher courses at the Bronx High School of Science? Not likely! Do they take courses at all? Essentially no.

So, what the professors do is just study the best materials and go to some seminars. In simple terms, students can do much the same starting with, say, high school ninth grade material and continuing on. If get very far in academics, then just MUST work and learn fully independently or nearly so, so might as well just start doing that ASAP, especially to get around all the terrible struggles of K-12.

Bluntly, nearly no US K-12 teacher knows any material that is worth any student struggling over. So, get THROUGH the K-12 material and get on to college level material, ASAP.

So, for a student who wants the best education in K-12 and later, first, get the basics, the prerequisites for college material, and then study the best college material. "The basics" are just high school math and science together with good skills reading and writing English. History, belle lettre literature, music, etc., maybe fun and nice but for academic success close to irrelevant.

So, in K-12 years, ASAP get into fractions, exponents, compound interest, areas and volumes. Then do first year algebra, plane geometry, second year algebra, trigonometry, solid geometry. Do general science, chemistry, biology, physics. For the science, will do it all again and much more thoroughly again anyway, essentially several times more, so don't get all perfectionistic for the first pass.

Then start on college material -- first up, calculus of one independent variable and then several independent variables, heavy on intuition, light on proofs. Watch the best Internet lectures -- IMHO, Khan Academy is NOT good enough. Use several of the best regarded texts; to find those, ask some college students, TAs, or profs or look at the Web sites of calculus courses at the best universities and see what texts they are using. Likely buy the texts used -- calculus hasn't much changed in decades, highly recommended old texts should be fine and cheap! Do the homework problems and check answers in the back of the book.

Maybe wander onto a college campus or have a family friend who is a college prof and get the tests for the calculus course, take those, and beg a calculus TA or prof to grade the results.

Continue with math and science the same way -- best materials, with some informal contact with a college.

Once get to college junior level material, at some research universities, start attending public research seminars. Typically won't understand more than 10% of the material but WILL get lots of keywords that can motivate and direct studies. Maybe meet a prof or two who will volunteer to grade some homework, say, in math, physics, maybe let you have some copies of tests and grade your solutions. Also many graduate school departments publish their qualifying exams -- they are good and important sources of exercises.

When have good reason to feel confident, take the SAT aptitude tests and the STEM field subject matter tests AND then the same for the GREs. Right, still in K-12 but taking the GRE to show that you are ready for graduate school.

If really want to seal the deal, blow away the college admissions committees, publish some papers, a few should do, in good quality peer reviewed journals.

Then apply to college, maybe using some of the contacts you got from attending the research seminars. So, a friendly prof might just contact the college admissions committee and ask that you be admitted with full scholarship.

So, you enter as a college freshman but start on your Master's and maybe are a TA or research assistant for a prof.

Look, for academics, the real goal is likely not very visible at the Bronx High School of Science or any K-12 place. The real goal is in three words, research, research, and research. For that, get into a good research university, do well learning the prerequisites, attend seminars to see what some of the current research topics are, work with good profs, and do publish some good research.

If want some additional concentration on bio-medical and get an MD, fine. It's also possible to go for a law degree. Or can continue in main line STEM field academics and be a professor at a research university. Or, sure, can do what, say, A. Viterbi did and go for entrepreneurship and, then, get your name on an engineering school!

Does independent study work? It certainly did for me: I got a Ph.D. in applied math and was a college prof. Starting with first year algebra, class time was mostly a waste of time, and I learned nearly all the material, especially the good material I learned well, from independent study. My preparation for the graduate school qualifying exams, my Ph.D. research, my other, published research -- all from essentially just independent study. That's what research professors do -- learn what they need to know and then do their research, both essentially independently.

At least at one time, the math department at Princeton stated on their Web site that no courses were offered for preparation for the qualifying exams, that the courses were introductions to research by experts in their fields, and that students were expected to prepare for the qualifying exams on their own. So, the Princeton math department regards independent study as essential.

One of the best lessons I learned in math was in high school plane geometry: The teacher was the most offensive human I ever saw. So, in class, I just put my head down and slept. Then after school, I read the lesson material quickly and then looked at the exercises. I started with the last, most difficult ones and did them all until I got to the trivial ones. Then I turned to the back of the book for the more difficult supplementary exercises and did ALL of them, never let even one go. So, on the state test, I did well!

I continued to learn math that way: E.g., I never took freshman calculus, instead, got a good text and taught myself, much as I learned high school plane geometry and for a course started on sophomore calculus and did well.

E.g., as a senior, I got a famous, challenging text in topology and gave a prof a lecture a week, for each chapter, one lecture on the material and one more with solutions to the exercises.

It's not just me: Bluntly, if go very far in academics, just MUST be good at independent study. So, might as well get started in high school material, and if do that then can f'get about all the struggles with Bronx High School of Science, Dalton School, etc. Again, the K-12 teachers don't know anything worth struggle. Want to struggle a little? Okay, on YouTube, watch the lectures on quantum mechanics from MIT. Or, for a mathematician giving an introduction to bio-medical research, watch the Eric Lander lectures -- on YouTube, from MIT.

Bronx High School of Science? F'get about it. Again, get the good stuff from, say, Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Princeton, etc. Done. Any questions?

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#90
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some examples of cultural bias? People almost never provide examples. I thought that was always a bullshit excuse, especially considering that these test scores closely track IQ scores.

While the individual questions may be (for the most part) purged of any cultural bias, family income remains the primary demographic correlated with test performance. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these... https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e7a0/dfdee8ad5b91e1d179e9e2...

Of course, a correlation with income is likely a spurious correlation from more basic causes. E.g., suppose a poor family whose kids are doing poorly in school won the lottery and suddenly has high income; do we expect that suddenly then their kids will do well in school?
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