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You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

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Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#91

Post by muninn_ »

rayiner wrote: post #47
jeromegv wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans always tend to use homogeneity as an argument when they compare themselves with other countries, like it’s somehow a good argument not to be as good as other countries in some aspects. Like you, I doubt that this is actually relevant. Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse.

> Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse. Less than 20% of Canada is a "visible minority." In the U.S., it's almost 40%. Toronto recently became a majority minority city. Washington, D.C. became a majority minority city sometime in the 1950s. In Chicago, it was sometime in the 1980s. Canada has no majority-minority provinces. Ontario is still 67% European…

Where immigrants come from matters too - family-based system vs points-based system.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#92

Post by jshaqaw »

makomk wrote: post #60
Eupolemos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dane here. I think this article gets something right, pointing out trust. Another word would be "solidarity" - believing you 'owe' your fellow countryman and that you are on the same team. What's good for you is good for me. In Denmark, we pay something like 50% tax but we also get a lot of things covered by our state which other countries let the individuals get through expensive insurance. This means that if my nei…

It doesn't even require taxes to vanish into black holes, waste and corruption for this to fall apart; all it requires is that those taxes are being spent on people who aren't like us in some sense, who are too far away or too culturally different. You can see this with, for example, the griping from Californians about how unfair it is that they're forced to subsidise other states which aren't the economic success st…

The griping isn’t about subsidizing those less well off. The griping is about a warped Federal system which systematically allows states with representation disproportionate to their populations or wealth to siphon excessive resources.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#93

Post by scarlac »

giovannicarruba wrote: post #28

I wonder why five islamic terrorist attacks didn't seem to have any impact on Denmark, while France and Germany have escalated their police states to incredible levels. Is it also because of all the trust? Do people in Denmark maybe trust that the police will catch the perpetrators, while we in Germany know that the Police no longer even tries to catch petty thieves and could never be trusted to avoid a terrorist plo…

Dane here. I live 500 meters from one of the attacks. I've been happy with how the police has handled the terrorist situations. I do not fear going past the place of the attack - it's not a trend. We have no guns allowed, no large knives, no pepper spray, etc. In terms of effective anti-terrorist means, I don't see what I could ask of politicians. What usually happens is terrorist attacks put immigration on the political agenda. In that sense I don't see Denmark reacting much differently than USA, France, or others, where immigrants are sometimes directly accused of being terrorists, stealing jobs, stealing the women, stealing welfare, etc.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#94

Post by sprash »

High trust societies are the way they are because of genetic traits of its citizens. Especially in Scandinavian and other northern countries for tens of thousands of years the individual was only able to survive the long winter when it was able to think ahead and to cooperate in large groups. Like the skin color that fact must have some evolutionary impact for behavior. However those are things of the past. Bringing in migrants from low trust societies will once and for all destroy this culture of trust. Every integration measure so far has failed the past and will fail in the future as long as people ignore the fact that it takes certain strictly inheritable traits to be part of those communities.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#95

Post by KozmoNau7 »

arghwhat wrote: post #89
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?

The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being ver…

The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it.

Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead?

Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#96

Post by justin66 »

rsync wrote: post #70

You can have perfect trains and bicycles everywhere or you can invent jazz and snowboarding. You can't do both. As someone who lives in the US but does business, and travels, in Europe frequently, I would prefer that the immigrants come to the melting pot (the US) and that the European countries retain their distinctiveness.

> You can have perfect trains and bicycles everywhere or you can invent jazz and snowboarding. You can't do both.

Baffling.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#97

Post by [deleted] »

lod723 wrote: post #38
arghwhat wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A smaller country with low diversity results in more uniform opinions, I suppose? But, comparing Norway to the U.S.A. would be odd. From over here, the U.S.A. can be compared to the E.U., in which case the comparison should be between American states and European countries. Specifically for Norway, it would be like a state in the middle of the U.S.A. that never actually became part of the union, but with really good…

You mean Norway is the Canada of the EU?

[deleted]

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#98

Post by Eupolemos »

rayiner wrote: post #55
Eupolemos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dane here. I think this article gets something right, pointing out trust. Another word would be "solidarity" - believing you 'owe' your fellow countryman and that you are on the same team. What's good for you is good for me. In Denmark, we pay something like 50% tax but we also get a lot of things covered by our state which other countries let the individuals get through expensive insurance. This means that if my nei…

> Just remember that Danes/Scandinavians aren't better people than others I'm not sure I buy that. Say you're tasked with planning and building a whole new city in an isolated place. Do you want to bring along 10,000 randomly-selected Bangladeshis, or 10,000 randomly-selected Danes? As a Bangladeshi myself, I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat. I think you can fairly blame circumstance for it, but at the end of the d…

> Doesn't that make Danes better than Americans?

In my opinion, yes. That is my culture and I stand by it.

But my point is that Danes aren't inherently better. It isn't like Scandinavians are some kind of master race with genes of goodness and kind hearts.

It is about growing and maintaining a culture and system of warranted trust, and that isn't easy. But having said that, it is just work. Every nation can do it if they set their mind to it.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#99

Post by acct1771 »

Thriptic wrote: post #87
acct1771 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it works incredibly well for them. It's almost as if trying to centrally plan for dozens of drastically different types of societies and regions isn't efficient, or as effective as a smaller, actually representative government or something. Just ask the USSR. Maybe we could break up the US into some sort of territories, so like-minded people could gather, and govern themselves based on local needs...

The problem with this is that there are clearly certain groups who are far more economically productive than other groups. It would only be a matter of time before conflict broke out.

Counterpoint: the EU.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#100

Post by arghwhat »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #95
arghwhat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work. I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being ver…

The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead? Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).

Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly?

I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better mental health), so the only solution I can think of is to ensure that the hell you're in isn't comfortable enough that you just might end up staying.

Yes, having a decent life is the goal, but in Denmark, the only practical means to that end in this country is through financial income (I'm ignoring the option of already being filthy rich). If you wish to live without finances, you would have to find a country where that is possible—even full self-sufficiency is not free in Denmark. Likewise, avoiding a job, and thereby consuming the fruits of our taxes without contributing, is frowned upon.

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