You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes • Hacker News Board

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#81

Post by acct1771 » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

And it works incredibly well for them.

It's almost as if trying to centrally plan for dozens of drastically different types of societies and regions isn't efficient, or as effective as a smaller, actually representative government or something. Just ask the USSR.

Maybe we could break up the US into some sort of territories, so like-minded people could gather, and govern themselves based on local needs...

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#82

Post by lvh » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #72

lvh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting it's unusual or undesirable for a pension fund to not be paying out currently? If a country creates a sovereign wealth fund for when the proverbial and in this case literal well eventually dries up and it doesn't need to tap into that currently, and there's $200k for every citizen in that piggy bank, that seems like a pretty good thing for preventing social unrest and perhaps even promoting social…

Maybe read the comment I was replying to? They made the argument that Norway's economic success is caused by the fund. Which it is not. Because the fund is, to repeat myself, "a net negative currently, used to defer the use of the fossil fuel windfall for future times". To more directly answer your question: the fund is the sort of level-headed strategic genius that only a sane country like Norway could pull off. Com…

I am the author of the comment you were replying to, so I assume I'm reasonably familiar with what it says and does not say. I did not say that Norway's _economic_ success is caused by the fund, that's silly. I was replying to a comment suggesting that comparing a country to Norway in the context of increased social cohesion and we could just cargo-cult whatever they're doing is simplistic, because their situation is different, among which a trillion dollar sovereign piggy bank.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#83

Post by lvh » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #78

lvh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway also has two giant sovereign funds, which they use to fund pensions. The oil fund alone is worth almost 200k per Norwegian. That's not an argument you can make for Denmark, but yes: Norway is doing great. All you need is a small homogeneous population and a trillion dollars.

You are making the opposite point of the one you think you are making: Norway has those trillion dollars set aside because they nationalized a lot of oil profit. The US could have done that to, and so could for that matter Venezuela.

I think you're attributing a point to me I'm not actually making? I am not saying "the US could not have done so", I am saying the US did not and Norway did.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#84

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

PhilipA wrote: post #64

RobertoG wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that the main problem with Denmark is that people is complacent, but you don't explain why being complacent is a problem. Is it so bad that people have "complacent" lives when there is enough resources? Maybe, people should aspire to a life of heroic struggled nevermind the circumstances?

Being complacent is 'perfect' from a state of mind - don't get me wrong, this is why we are happy. The issue is that people who are complacent are not as hungry, and we need a bit of the hunger and drive to continue to have the wealth that we have been used to.

It seems to me that wealth come from two sources: capital accumulation (I'm not talking about money here) and knowledge accumulation.

How do you expect to lose those? If something, I would expect they increase and that allowing people to be even more 'complacent'.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#85

Post by arghwhat » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

lod723 wrote: post #38

arghwhat wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A smaller country with low diversity results in more uniform opinions, I suppose? But, comparing Norway to the U.S.A. would be odd. From over here, the U.S.A. can be compared to the E.U., in which case the comparison should be between American states and European countries. Specifically for Norway, it would be like a state in the middle of the U.S.A. that never actually became part of the union, but with really good…

You mean Norway is the Canada of the EU?

Sort of, yes. Just smaller, and in a local unions with the closest states of the U.S.A.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#86

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #61

nextos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated. The problem comes from the recent wave and semi-open borders within EU that make it easy for some mafias to move into the country to commit crime. It's a tought problem.

"Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated." I met a group of young, liberal, well-educated Danes on a trip to Japan once and later, accepted their invitation to visit Denmark, where I stayed for about ten days. Make no mistake - these were picture-perfect Copenhagen Danes with exactly the liberal and progressive bent that you would expect and they…

A few months ago I had a similar conversation with a Norwegian guy complaining about the number of immigrants in Norway. The funny thing is that the guy was living in my country.

Of course, in his eyes he was not an immigrant, but an expatriate.

A little of effort trying to understand others can make wonders. Most immigrants behave, a few not. Of those, a few are just bad persons, but most are just poor an uneducated and probably they would prefer to be in their home countries.

If immigrants are so problematic, maybe we should be looking into what, in many cases, our governments are doing (or not doing) in their native countries.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#87

Post by Thriptic » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

acct1771 wrote: post #81

joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

And it works incredibly well for them. It's almost as if trying to centrally plan for dozens of drastically different types of societies and regions isn't efficient, or as effective as a smaller, actually representative government or something. Just ask the USSR. Maybe we could break up the US into some sort of territories, so like-minded people could gather, and govern themselves based on local needs...

The problem with this is that there are clearly certain groups who are far more economically productive than other groups. It would only be a matter of time before conflict broke out.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#88

Post by Thriptic » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #49

I notice the absorption of outsiders is portrayed as a goal, implying that it's an unalloyed good, beyond question. Is there some good reason to think that? I mean America prides itself on it, but is there any good reason to think that (for example) Danes should be responsible for non-Danes? Or on a basic level, what's wrong with having places exist in the world where the people there are mostly from there? Isn't tha…

I don't think it's a problem at all for places to be culturally or ethnically homogenous. I would say the primary advantage of integration and diversity is that no culture is perfect in every way, and cross pollination allows for the best parts of each culture to be recognized and used. That being said, cultural exchange relies on a decently high degree of overlap between cultures to establish kinship and trust. There are definitely cultures which are so different that they cannot exist well in close proximity, and so it's inefficient to try to force them to.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#89

Post by arghwhat » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #65

arghwhat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival , nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being…

I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more. Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?

The primary reason is that there needs to be a strong incentive to get back to work.

I know quite a few that have been on the unemployment safety net for years (which appears to be quite a normal duration), and while it seemed to care for them very well, a growing depression appears to be standard once you end up there, which kills motivation to get out. I would assume that this is due to one likely already being very vulnerable and at least halfway depressed when unemployment hits you.

I don't think providing a stable and independent, but unhealthy environment helps those people. We have tried to ensure progress by forcing people to go to a job center every day, but if they're not motivated for a job, they won't get any. It becomes a chore that just contributes to a pointless living.

The secondary reason is that it is expensive, and paid by the employed. Getting people employed fast means more money to support when there is need.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#90

Post by arghwhat » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #27

arghwhat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival , nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being…

> I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.

Being well is motivating, but being in the welfare safety net is not. It is stable, unhelpful, and those there are commonly depressed. They get stuck for years like that, and some don't make it out.