You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes • Hacker News Board

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#21

Post by lvh » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 3:53 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #11

joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

What do you mean by "let's face it, racially"? Are people incapable of trusting others of a different skin colour?

It is objectively true that Norway, compared to the US, is a racial monoculture. Sociological evidence suggests ethnic diversity correlates negatively with social cohesion, though recent studies also suggests that while causal, the effect depends significantly on their prior preferences.

That's not saying "people can not trust others of a different skin color", but it is saying that generally speaking, people in more ethnically diverse communities are less trusting of each other. Call that what you will :)

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#22

Post by JonnyNova » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

timecube wrote: post #3

joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

Social democratic policies tend to become more efficient with increased scale, so why would it be negative that the US is larger than Norway?

One of the downsides is that a larger system collects more money and becomes a much more ripe target for individuals looking to corrupt it.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#23

Post by muninn_ » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

jeromegv wrote: post #13

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What arguments are those, exactly? What's the significance of a smaller population or homogeneity? Has any such relation been rigorously studied, or is it just speculation?

Americans always tend to use homogeneity as an argument when they compare themselves with other countries, like it’s somehow a good argument not to be as good as other countries in some aspects. Like you, I doubt that this is actually relevant. Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse.

Intuitively do you believe it's easier to govern a group of people with very different opinions and very different backgrounds and socioeconomic status, or easier?

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#24

Post by nextos » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 3:55 PM UTC

PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

This article touched me deeply, as I can relate to all these issues. I love Denmark. I've lived there for almost a decade, and I hope to return in the future. I consider it my second home.

Another big problem is that great welfare and superb salaries (further enhanced by SKAT's scheme for foreign researchers) attract the wrong type of people to research institutions. I met countless foreigners that act like Milena Penkowa [1] (she's Danish, though). They abuse the system, misuse funds and do nothing valuable. Except perpetuating their position.

Me and my close peers hated this. I left to Oxbridge. Much worse quality of life, but a decent meritocracy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milena_Penkowa

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#25

Post by alphamonster » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

jeromegv wrote: post #13

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What arguments are those, exactly? What's the significance of a smaller population or homogeneity? Has any such relation been rigorously studied, or is it just speculation?

Americans always tend to use homogeneity as an argument when they compare themselves with other countries, like it’s somehow a good argument not to be as good as other countries in some aspects. Like you, I doubt that this is actually relevant. Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse.

Canada is much less (racially) diverse than the U.S.: 89% white and the largest minority group as asian with 6.7% versus the U.S. 66% white and 14.7% hispanic as the largest minority group. source: data compiled from census reports https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.mx/2011/03/us-vs-cana...

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#26

Post by mrweasel » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs.

As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's completely safe to trust others is extremely hard. Likewise when an outsider break that trust Danes become extremely upset and hostile.

We're also becoming increasingly distrusting of other Danes, as people seem to become increasingly self-centred. This was a debate in a radio show a few weeks ago, sadly the reason wasn't discussed, only the danger of losing trust. Trust is hard to build, and our government is increasingly looking towards control and surveillance to ensure safety instead. Stores are moving certain items up to the register, because thieve simply walk out with entire boxes of Nutella or instant coffee.

As a Dane this is extremely disheartening to watch. The feeling that the safe, stable, equal and embracing society, you grew up in, is slowly evaporating isn't a pleasant one.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#27

Post by Alex3917 » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #19

PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival , nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being…

> I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though.

At least in the US people born into wealthier families make way more money than average, so there isn't anything inherently demotivating about welfare.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#28

Post by giovannicarruba » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

I wonder why five islamic terrorist attacks didn't seem to have any impact on Denmark, while France and Germany have escalated their police states to incredible levels. Is it also because of all the trust? Do people in Denmark maybe trust that the police will catch the perpetrators, while we in Germany know that the Police no longer even tries to catch petty thieves and could never be trusted to avoid a terrorist plot?

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#29

Post by jcims » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 4:03 PM UTC

PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

How is the pursuit of exceptional achievement perceived in Denmark? What do little Danes want to do when they grow up?

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#30

Post by torpfactory » Sat, Feb 24, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

I think you see these effects in microcosm throughout the US as well. I grew up in Wisconsin and there were definitely many similarities:

* Campfire wood for sale next to the highway with an unlocked mailbox for your payment (everyone else's payment just sitting there...). * Car stuck in the snowbank? Every time it happened to me, the very first car to come along has stopped to help dig it out. * At least in rural areas: many people did not lock their doors. Why would they? No need to.

Definitely the best piece of writing I have seen in some time about one of the Scandinavian countries that American liberals (of which I count myself a member) always hold up as ideals. The model only works in the context of a society that doesn't _need_ as much assistance, regulation, or policing. The author makes a persuasive argument that high levels of trust are an important, or maybe the defining feature of this society.