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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#91

Post by spodek »

turc1656 wrote: post #72
maxerickson wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The space a vehicle takes up is also essentially a public good. Your argument can probably be fairly recast as "everyone should have to pay equal costs in time if they want to use the road". And then never mind that a congestion charge is more predictable than sitting in congestion.

When I was down in Dallas, they have two parallel roadways - one which is the paid-for express version and one which is free. You can pay to get on the less-congested highway or choose to take the more congested, but free, highway. Maybe something like that for NYC would work? But with NYC's layout, I have no idea how that would work. Dallas has plenty of space to make that possible.

Subway, bus, taxi, walk, bike, skateboard, ferry, ...

You can even take a helicopter some places.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#92

Post by tantalor »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

You have a false analogy. Traffic increases as the size of the road network increases, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

This is not the case for schools.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#94

Post by baldfat »

rthomas6 wrote: post #39
baldfat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!! $15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further no…

Why couldn't you take a train instead? That area is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is good enough to make that feasible.

Time for me to get on the train and go to NYC one way is 2 hours plus, so over 4 hours round trip. It is 50 miles away from my old home. Cost is $27 round trip (off peak) or $38.50 (peak) for the ticket. So taking the train is convenient and I love it but it ruins the rest of my day.

Now there was a time when I was 19 and the last train left at 11 PM I the schedule said 1 AM kind of sucked and the next train was at 5 AM. It was with friends from LA and their flight was at 9 AM the next day.

You are on the trains schedule so I will have to wait for the train to leave. Usually if I had a quick stop in the city I would make other stops coming back home. Most people HATE driving in NYC and refuse to do it so I am not sure how much this will help.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#95

Post by brailsafe »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #65
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

They're both common in society. Instead of the school directly charging more money, increase property taxes, or don't allow apartments to be built. That describes most of the public schooling in America, and why a child's future is most dependent upon their zip code. NYC is different in that the city government covers rich and poor people and can't legally separate the two so a different measure develops, such as ent…

I'd offer up that while it may be useful to compare outcomes with zipcode, the same research would benefit from more granularity, and often is. For example, block to block neighborhood boundaries can reveal remarkable contrasts between socio-economic conditions.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#96

Post by ghaff »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #51
jimmaswell wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax funded roads being gated off to those without higher incomes doesn't sound fair to me in any case, even if there are alternatives.

Sometimes, the world doesn't present us with a solution that is "fair", especially when demand is greater than supply. Assuming you were tasked with reducing the congestion of the road network in NYC and its surrounding areas, do you any ideas of a solution that is "fair"? Edit: Elsewhere in this thread, someone posted a link to Beijing's solution to congestion, which seem interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki…

Given the circumstances of Manhattan, where most individuals don't need to drive into the city, a congestion charge would seem to make more sense.

But, yes, in general the alternatives for excess demand of a fixed quantity item tend to be:

1.) Increase price

2.) Have a lottery (which doesn't really make any sense here)

3.) Have some sort of rationing scheme (waitlist, can only buy X of item, etc.)

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#97

Post by baldfat »

Simon_says wrote: post #31
baldfat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!! $15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further no…

Is that too high? Then kindly don't drive in Manhattan.

$100 to commute a week isn't to high?

When the train cost $27 round trip (off peak) or $38.50 (peak) it is a pain. Also if you have business in NYC you are stuck with either losing the whole day or half a day just to get there.

Now Chicago, Atlanta and LA have bad traffic it doesn't cost you a hundred bucks to commute for a week.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#98

Post by look_lookatme »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand schools in order to lessen the overcrowding of those schools?

If you just moved to Boerum Hill and paid cash for a $5,000,000 brownstone and converted it into a single family home, I don't see why not.

Take that money and put it toward improving the various segregated NYC schools that you used your money to avoid.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#99

Post by weatherlight »

Manhattan is 2 miles by 14 miles. Unless you are moving something heavy, there really is no reason not to use the Subway, it's faster, cheaper, and runs all night and all day.

Not only that, the majority of New Yorkers do not own cars. I don't even know how to drive. I do, however, take buses and ride my bike. (In NYC you'll get ticketed if you ride your bike on the sidewalk )

In NYC, real estate is extremely limited. Why should such real estate, which is paid for with city taxes benefit so few?

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#100

Post by rayiner »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

> I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing.

We have congestion pricing for schools. Try buying a house near one of the good elementary schools in DC or Chicago.

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