Why do we still use pennies in commerce?
Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#42This is one of the only places in the US where public transportation is kind of good. Many people in NYC don't own a car and don't even know how to drive. It boggles my mind the amount of people complaining about how expensive it is to drive to Manhattan. ...Why did you drive in the first place? Unless you need to carry something large/heavy, there's no real reason to drive there. Just park, take a cab/train there, and once you're there, it's faster than driving to use the subway to get places.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#43It seems like it would be fairer to privatize the roads entirely and force the people who can actually use them to pay the entire cost. Otherwise poor people are subsidizing roads reserved for the rich that they can't even use.
>Otherwise poor people are subsidizing roads reserved for the rich that they can't even use.
Welcome to the state of infrastructure everywhere, but especially in big cities like NYC.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
$15 isn't indefensible if the project is solely or mostly funded with tolls (and therefore not out of state / city budget). But as to toll (flat) vs tax (progressive), you're right: it's definitely screwing over the poor. I'm all in favor of usage based charging, but "unaffordable to live near work on a moderate salary" + "we're going to tax your daily commute, the same as your boss" doesn't feel fair.
The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.
How practical is that for the people who are currently driving in NYC?
In Chicago, the vast majority of people who live in the suburbs and work in the loop take Metra. But Chicago's transit system is so heavily hub-and-spoke that the public transit just isn't practical if you don't work near the hub, and plenty of people don't. For them, it's frequently a choice between an hour or so in traffic, and more like 2 hours split among some combination of traffic (to get to the commuter train station), train, and maybe bus. I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Large amounts of traffic means more tolls collected. They could get by fine on a normal toll amount. $15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"?
$15 is indefensible. Why is the answer "screw the poor"? Why screw the middle class? Is paying 15$ every time you drive somewhere sustainable for you? If it is, then your not middle class - your rich
Then don't go places you can't afford to pay the externality for. It doesn't screw the poor, its allocating finite resources in a market-based economy. If we want to socialize the cost of infrastructure (which I agree with) then taxes need to be levied. Virginians aren't paying Manhattan property tax so why is it so outrageous to tax people entering over an expensive and congested bridge?
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#46The London congestion charge is £11.50, and it works pretty well.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#47London has something similar, the congestion charge. Has helped somewhat, and def makes regular driving in central London a 'you did what?' thing. It's lifted on the weekend, which is nice if you want to pop to IKEA or whatever.
I think they're planning on pushing something similar all the way out to the north circular, and maybe the M25 for heavily polluting traffic.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
$15 isn't indefensible if the project is solely or mostly funded with tolls (and therefore not out of state / city budget). But as to toll (flat) vs tax (progressive), you're right: it's definitely screwing over the poor. I'm all in favor of usage based charging, but "unaffordable to live near work on a moderate salary" + "we're going to tax your daily commute, the same as your boss" doesn't feel fair.
The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.
Tax funded roads being gated off to those without higher incomes doesn't sound fair to me in any case, even if there are alternatives.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not disagreeing with you about the economic point, but will kindly disagree with you in terms of spending. Let's just say New York does not have a great history of spending on infrastructure. A recent New York Times piece, mentioned that the price of labor on infrastructure projects is 5 times more expensive then anywhere else in the world. It just blows my mind that people in the NYC area are willing to put up with…
I agree the costs are high. That is largely a result of the high cost of living. There's additional economically literate funding methods which account for that. For instance, when infrastructure is built, it causes surrounding land values and rents to rise. It is possible to use that rising value to pay for the infrastructure, via a special assessment. There is also an issue where the people with the worst infrastru…
I'm not sure you read the article in question.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
The costs aren't high because of cost of living, they're high because of cushy agreements with workers unions and construction companies, among a myriad other things.
Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan
#50Since surprisingly nobody has mentioned it in the comments here yet, we have a similar scheme in place in London, and have done for quite some time. It's only for the most central/congested zone and has had a hugely beneficial impact on congestion.
That being said, it almost never makes sense to drive a car inside central London anyway as the public transport is very reliable and has almost full coverage, and it's dealing with a very different problem in the first place (old horse and cart windy roads adjusting for the modern age).