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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#91

Post by TeMPOraL »

jfaucett wrote: post #76
allemagne wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure many who applaud Brexit don't support "Calexit" either and I don't think that's ironic, really. They're entirely different situations.

I would like to see an argument for that. With the original scenario, its just an argument for autonomy and that less homogoneity and centralization in governmental structures better represents and distributes power amoung the diversity of the governed. Someone arguing for Brexit and against Calexit would have to do so on other grounds - which I'd be interested to see if they have any weight.

The things that make a region a part of a country are different from the things that make countries a part of a transnational union.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#92

Post by icebraining »

jfaucett wrote: post #76
allemagne wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure many who applaud Brexit don't support "Calexit" either and I don't think that's ironic, really. They're entirely different situations.

I would like to see an argument for that. With the original scenario, its just an argument for autonomy and that less homogoneity and centralization in governmental structures better represents and distributes power amoung the diversity of the governed. Someone arguing for Brexit and against Calexit would have to do so on other grounds - which I'd be interested to see if they have any weight.

Seems simple to justify: Brexit is just canceling a treaty, the other is dividing a country.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#94

Post by farresito »

rbanffy wrote: post #58
farresito wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.

Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.

The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#95

Post by unethical_ban »

rbanffy wrote: post #58
farresito wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.

Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed. Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.

If a supposedly democratic nation banned free speech, then I would proudly break the law.

If a sufficient number of people in a geopolitical area wish to govern themselves, broadly, it should be seriously considered by any ethical government.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#96

Post by vertex-four »

dazc wrote: post #69
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake." That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped. The fact that i…

What was this 'middle way' option? Scotland already has its own Parliament, legislation and such. I always thought they were already in a 'middle way'? I'm not trying to be provocative, just trying to understand what else could Scotland get without going full-on independent?

More control over taxation could be something on the table. Devolution of welfare & benefits. A reevaluation of how much input Scotland gets in UK-wide decisions. A reevaluation of how things like NHS Scotland are funded, in the face of NHS England being gradually drained of cash (since the amount of money given to Scotland to spend on various things depends on the amount of money England spends on them). There's a few big things, and a bunch of little specific things, that could all be on the table.

In practice, some of this has happened, but perhaps not as much as would've been if the debate were more public.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#97

Post by jimmaswell »

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

>At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves

This isn't really true. You can get arrested for "offensive" social media posts in the UK.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#98

Post by Mc_Big_G »

Funny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there. Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's methods of dealing with this but many of you have got it wrong. Like, badly wrong.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#99

Post by atomi »

rbanffy wrote: post #53
iagooar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s Totally agree. Yet, the 70s were different times. Getting out of a dictatorship and moving into a democratic state takes a lot of compromises on all sides. Back then, there was the sense of urgency to agree on common terms, for the time being, to allow the country and the people to transition into a modern democracy. It's been 40 years now. Time…

> Times change, the world changes, people change. A constitution is a very important document for a country There are legal ways to change a constitution. In all cases, it starts by changing public opinion.

I wonder how some of these posters would feel if this was a California referendum requesting independence.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#100

Post by icebraining »

egloeda wrote: post #67
tbatchelli wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy…

"That constitution was written and signed under Military watch." You're just lying. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratifi...

That link doesn't confirm or deny parent's statement.
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