Live data from Hacker News

Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

medium.com

91–100 of 218 posts

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#91

I suspect a subtle mistranslation here. Chekhov seems to be talking about decent people, or maybe good people, not cultured ones. In English, it is quite possible to be cultured but bad. You know all kinds of stuff about literature, music, art, history and science (and therefore you are cultured) but you cheat on your wife and your taxes (and are therefore bad).

I think I agree. To be некультурным implies more than just not having refined tastes, or an education, or manners.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#92
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the thing about russians and noses? Well. https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/g/gogol/nikolai/g61n/

I'd always had an impression of classical Russian writing as being impenetrable, but this was delightful. Thank you!

There are different ones, and Gogol is IMHO one of the best ones and probably easiest ones too. His works are still widely enjoyed and quoted, which is not exactly the case with many other "classical" works, which are studied in schools but often fail to connect with a modern reader. His humor and satire is arguably as relevant now as it was back when it was written. I have no idea how it translates (it'd be a hard work indeed to properly represent his style, no idea whether even possible) but if there's a good translation that's the one I'd recommend to somebody who finds other classics impenetrable.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#93
post #27

This translation is great but I think it's still interesting to read into the connotations of Chekhov's original words: http://www.anton-chehov.info/754-n-p-chexovu.html >you are drawn away from it, and you vacillate between cultured people and the lodgers vis-a-vis >тебя тянет от нее, и тебе приходится балансировать между культурной публикой и жильцами vis-а-vis. Here "cultured people" are originally "культурная пуб…

In English people used to say 'well-bred' but I can't quite squeeze that into the title above.

IMHO well-bred has a meaning of specific ancestry, of aristocracy of one sort or another, of which the Russian "воспитанный" has none - it's rather well brought-up, well-behaved, conforming to the norms and customs of the polite society.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#94
post #71
post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

The more I think about it and learn about the functioning of the brain, the less I believe in the unitary 'self'. I once read the suggestion that what we think of as the 'self' is really just the brain's public relations department.

You might enjoy a book called Quantum Psychology (Robert Anton Wilson).

He lays out some interesting concepts about the way we think and one thought experiment in particular, observing all the 'thinkers' within and how they can multiply at will i.e consider the following innocuous statement:

"I observe that I am happy"

Who is happy and who is the observer?

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#95
post #83
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This unfortunately does not account for different groups having different starting luck. I suppose you can in part handle that by having very large groups but since luck is luck simply the process of selection, even if random, is biased which gives you another problem.

Which is why units should be randomly selected into each groups to avoid confounding factors like the one you mention.

Ah, but a person with preëxisting good luck might be preferentially randomly selected into the nose-touching group, amplifying the effect and making it hard to measure its size.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#97
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's bourgeois, so what? I've been poor and I've been not poor. Not poor is better, trust me. Being not poor and cultured is way better. There are few things more annoyingly bourgeois than fetishizing poverty.

You misrepresent me by saying I fetishised poverty. I did nothing of the sort. I merely said that a state of smug complacency is risible. Or are the 'cultured' so full of pomposity that mockery is considered threatening? That seems like narcissism to me.

>spending your time pondering how to make yourself 'cultured' is a nauseatingly bourgeois activity, ripe for satire when compared with the harder realities of life for the less well privileged.

I haven't misrepresented you. You literally said that a 'bourgeois' activity has less value compared to "harder realities of life for the less well privileged". That's putting poverty on a pedestal. That's fetishizing it.

No. Working your ass off to barely scrape by is not in any way better than learning new things, being kind, or any of the other things enumerated in this article. That ridiculous crab mentality is what kids who are born into poverty have to deal with if they express any aspiration to make something better of themselves. It is its own kind of smug complacency, far more malicious and destructive than someone taking pride in more 'bourgeois' accomplishments.

Seriously, give me 'nauseatingly bourgeois' culture any day. If that makes you feel insecure, maybe try reading a book or something.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#98
post #71
post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

The more I think about it and learn about the functioning of the brain, the less I believe in the unitary 'self'. I once read the suggestion that what we think of as the 'self' is really just the brain's public relations department.

I call it the "executive summary", basically we "are" a PowerPoint presentation of our brains.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#99

> They do not ask for the cleverness which shows itself in continual lying. They want especially, if they are artists, freshness, elegance, humanity, the capacity for motherhood ugh. Cut the misogynistic crap please Chekhov

TFW you're voted down immediately for calling out sexism which, though very explicit, has so far gone uncommented upon [edit] - could someone please explain why they're voting me down?

You're criticizing a person who died over a hundred years ago about modern progressive values that are only just getting real traction over the past 20-30 years.

It's worth pointing out that the statement is misogynistic, but where do you want to go from there?

Chekhov is dead, so certainly he isn't going to change his writing. But he is in numerous company of great writers who show outdated cultural values despite the quality of their work, so it doesn't sound like you're trying to outright dismiss the piece either. It's a pretty well established pattern when we run into cultural issues like misogyny and racism in older works to take the valuable parts and address the harmful parts at the point of interpretation.

I think you were voted down because 1. the mention of motherhood is pretty obviously sexist, so 2. people wanted to see you interpret the point into additional discussion, rather than just point it out.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#100
post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

takes will + effort to fight entropy. "your self" in this case is just a manifestation of a physical entropy-prone world that you are dealing with.

some of that is pre-programmed or instilled by the circumstance, anything above and beyond that requires additional effort that might seem like it's applied at "fighting yourself".

Post reply on HN